title: Episode 22: So you want to dive REBREATHERS?
author: DIVE TALK
contenttype: podcast
publication: DIVE TALK
published: 2020-11-13T12:00:00-05:00
sourceurl: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/divetalk/Episode_22.mp3?dest-id=1756346
word_count: 11693
Welcome everyone to dive talk episode number 22. This is perhaps the one that has been requested the most We keep getting emails about this Woody. I'm I'm bursting at the seams because I know Georgia Isn't gonna like what I'm about to say But one of my divider idols is on the show right now and she's incredible. I can't wait for the knowledge to pour out of her head Yes, where Georgia house or men is with us very very excited and the reason why Georgia is on the show By the way is because again people notice they were excited about rebreaters They keep asking guys do a show about rebreaters. We want to know more about them But you and I are kids rebreaters divers right I've never even tried a different unit within kiss You have done the sidewinder and the which is kiss but yeah It's all kiss But we wanted to have someone who is an actual expert in multiple units in Georgia How's her man is on the show Georgia. How are you? I'm kid are you I'm I hope Not to to underwhelm By the way tell him where you are that's kind of cool. We're in Atlanta, Georgia Just so you know Gus and I where are you Georgia? I am in Southburg, Austria about that Wow and you and you are Diving and teaching diving will you would yes? You wouldn't sort of yes I am you wouldn't be thinking about Austria. I'm thinking about snow skiing one right now when I well I'm waiting for the snow to come but And also the better visibility is in the winter time So I'm actually waiting for a little bit colder water so that we get the good visibility But little known fact is that Southburg is the dive capital of Austria Wow Is it he is it altitude or you went are you altitude diving there? Some of the dives are at altitude Southburg is about 400 meters And that's what what the lakes are okay, yeah I just made it up that it's the dive capital, but there are a lot of lakes here to dive Go on I would believe it. I'm ready to come diving there. It's a plug-in exclusive right is it cold by the way the water temp Serially no well to state of mind right it's What are the Norwegians say it's not it's there's such thing as bad weather just bad clothing yeah So the water temperature over the summer in most of the lakes were was right around 15 16 degrees at the surface or right around 60 61 yeah, and then at the bottom once you get below You know 30 feet or so And definitely by the time you get to 100 feet it was right around anywhere between like 39 and 42 Okay, that's right about 10 Celsius for those of you listening out Thick garments I gotta get used to it. I'm actually taking a class and with Randy Thornton I Stiving I'm gonna learn how to cut open the ice and I'm more excited about the power tool use of cutting the ice open Much of the diving I saw a pose yesterday by the way on Facebook somebody diving. I don't know where it looks like the US But he was snow and they had their car packed with their re-brither and like Snowboards they were gonna go snowboarding. Yeah, apparently there's this hole that they go to is it's thermal water So it was 94 the water is 94 I don't think I can dive a 95 I would love to dive It's insane all the talk actually that sounds like Utah. There's a crater There in Utah. Oh, there you go. So that's where it is maybe I'll get to do that But yeah, I think it's your I think it's near Park City if I'm not mistaken. Wow That's awesome. I don't I wonder how deep it is. I just saw the pictures. That's where I'm doing the ice diving with Randy Thornton you talk, but he's taking me to like freezing cold water All right, so I will talk about re-brither. Let's talk about re-brither. So Georgia Let me ask you this and this is this is a question that a lot of people have when they come and talk to me about re-brithers How many different re-brithers do you both dive and teach on and then more importantly I want to know why and One of them could you'll answer your own question of course It could be because I want to be diversified and be able to teach in a lot of them But then I after you answer the part about why teaching so many of them Why do you like to dive in such a different amount of them? What is it? Are you is a different tool for a different purpose or what is your thought philosophy on all these different Re-brithers and why you're involved in so many overall let's start the show with that Okay, so that's a very good question because in one that I don't know that I can really answer because I don't know it's It just kind of happened that I started diving a bunch of re-brithers I got on one of them Dovet for about three years was very very happy with it And then I went to work for patty and That allowed me to Get into a couple other different re-brithers So I got into that and it was just everything was just by accident I just never really sought out to get on and take on any particular re-brither It just the opportunity was there and so I just went forward. I never met a re-brither. I didn't like I love them all Wow, that's interesting itself. I'm that's gonna open up a bunch of questions That that that's the fact that you said you said you're wrong. I love the technology right okay? All right And do you do you own all of the different re-brithers that you dive on? Uh, I'm trying to think I know I have most of them. Okay There's probably a couple that um That I don't have I think and how it's couple yeah Couple I have that I that I was trained on as a diver that I don't have and I'm not I So I qualified as instructor and instructor trainer on a bunch of them and put the hours in I put all the requirements in But I don't do all of them right now. I just kind of focus on two or three of them And it's usually the ones that people ask for So all right, so that makes sense and How many is it total before we before I ask the rest of my questions? How many are you an instructor on and how many different ones do you dive just to make sure everybody's understanding the vast number we're talking about here um, so I've qualified as a diver on 10 different units um, I qualified as an instructor on eight of those And as an instructor trainer on six of those okay, that's mind-boggling That really is unbelievable. Okay, so but so it's safe to say you have tremendous experience with a variety of different re-readers Yes, yes. Yes. Are there substantial differences if I'm diving the kind of re-readers that I I to I dive a Kiss orca spirit and a kiss side wonder which basically is the same technology in both Okay, it's a mechanical re-breeder as you know Is it is it substantially different Between the seven others that you may dive on versus what I'm diving on and if so what are those major differences not the minor ones Uh, no not really because every re-breeder does the same thing right it moves you move gas around a loop You've got a scrubber in there to remove the carbon dioxide you've got oxygen to replace the oxygen that you metabolize you've got a diluent To replace volume and so all re-breeders work basically the same. It's just the The little nitpicky things that are different and more and more also the electronics are the same right yes So to me it's a little bit like getting a type rating in an airplane Is that you're not learning how to fly you're not learning just the systems it might be a little bit different and and how the systems work might be a little But different but generally they're they're all the same Okay, that is what I was thinking and hoping that you would go to because I want folks to know that when they do ask Wow, you know why is there a total different certification with this one re-breeder It's not a dramatic whole entire new set of courses. I mean we all Basically if you're teaching a class on a different re-breeder than the kiss, which is what I dive on You're basically doing the skills that the class would require a lot of you know emergency skills The same general way but the way you effectuate How to control that re-breeder maybe slightly different but really in the end if we have too high of a PO2 You got to lower the PO2 for you to have too little I mean you would have to bring in dill right so forth and so on the volume all of those types of various things Are still the same skills except for One big gigantic difference among the categories which is some are mechanical and some are I guess you would say electronic slash automated Well, and then you have semi-close and full close right Yeah, I'm sort of focusing on fully closed of some sort of semi-close is really a different category of But I think I think we should mention on the show for people listening what what is the semi-close re-breeder versus closed circuit re-breeder I mean, it's a quick it's a quick description essentially oh you can you can explain Georgia if you want Yeah, just a semi-close re-breeder is basically using nitrox gas that Is being injected into the unit it could be a passive injection or it can be also from a solenoid being injected and because you're using a nitrox gas As you metabolize the oxygen it has to put a lot more gas into the system And so it then has to vent out that extra gas so it's not fully closed system it there is a event in there to vent out that extra gas So is it fair? Sorry. It's a fair just It's a fair to say that a semi-close re-breeder is kind of like a gas extender Absolutely correct and in fact in a regular in a closed circuit re-breeder. It's one of the most effective ways of extending your gas right is turn your regular re-breeder into a semi-close re-breeder Then in fact you can handle almost every emergency except for a couple Through semi-close mode. It's amazing actually Which so there's a lot of workarounds to problems on a re-breeder and Yes The thing to keep in mind too is that most problems are in a re-breeder are user-induced And probably could have been avoided on the surface. Oh, man. Is that a true? That is absolutely true. So towards you at any one given point in time I've noticed that you tend to have a favorite re-breeder I remember this from the past you're sort of into a re-breeder And it becomes your favorite Is that still for different reasons? Okay, favorites for different reasons and what are those different reasons? Um So one might be for travel so from traveling Or if I'm in really warm water. I like to have a lightweight re-breeder One that's not killing my back for instance Or one that that's easy to pack and travel with makes sense If I'm doing cold water diving then I like to have a little bit heavier or I should say less One with less positive buoyancy to it so that I don't have to figure out where to add weight to it with the dry suit and the And the garments under garments and everything very logical Um, if I'm diving deep then I've got a couple choices. I like I like I like a manual re-breeder a lot for the deep diving um or something where If there's a problem with the solenoid sticking in the open position. I'm not going to get a bunch of oxygen coming into me um At 100 meters that would be bad and isn't that interesting that Your choice was to go to a mechanical slash manual re-breeder by the way for those listening that just means you're controlling The amount of oxygen that is going into the closed loop which regulates your partial pressure of oxygen You are controlling it by monitoring a computer and having to push a button I'm talking very basic to add to or push a button For the most part to bring in dill to reduce the partial pressure It's not happening automatically for you You're not like turning your computer on where it automatically sets something and fires it in for you Through a solenoid So yeah, so I think I want to yeah, I want to add on that. Ooty if I can is because there's a big marts miss perception miss conception Um, especially from people that dive electronic re-breeders about what a mechanical or Manual re-breeder is because part of the class when you do um a re-breeder course on any unit is You're going to do manual oxygen addition and if you're learning on an electronic unit You're adding oxygen all the time. It's it's a full-time job to maintain your PO2 when you don't have the the computer firing the solenoid The difference with a mechanical re-breeder or a manual re-breeder is that yes you are adding But what you can't forget is that there's always a constant flow of oxygen going into the loop right and it's um It's just about what your metabolism is using if you're at rest Um, so if you're doing a drift dive for instance, you're not expending a lot of energy You can go the entire dive without ever having to add oxygen absolutely. It's the sweet spot. I love when that I mean constant mass flow I'm gonna that's a whole conversation for those moments. It's a very interesting conversation I actually a lot of science behind that is actually fascinating. Yeah, so that is a perfect explanation of that but but so But what I was going to say what the interesting part was of your comment that that was your choice if you're going deep Is for some reason you're feeling That we have a otherwise I can't imagine the reason you feel like you have more control and in my mind more control means More options which dials into more safety If you're using a mechanical re-breeder at a deeper depth Then if you were at a deep depth excuse me then if you were using one that was More electronic that's kind of what you're saying and kind of yeah, but that's me. I mean there's a lot of People that or there are a lot of people that do a lot of deep diving with electric electronic units with solenoids That don't ever have any problems But I kind of like the idea that the way the The manual unit works right is that you have the intermediate pressure on the first stage which is Constant and the deeper you go the less oxygen that that can be injected So when you get to a hundred meters There's really very little if any oxygen and to me that's the that's the danger is too much oxygen at that That's that and that answers a question That's why I went here that comes up all of the time Hey, you know these mechanical re-breeder some of them are not rated to go to that particular depth because that constant mass flow that Trickling in a 0-2 it actually for sure I can tell you at about 250 60 feet You could push that button all you want Right, nothing stops right because the ambient pressure is It's it's no longer to be able to the intermediate pressures no longer going to be able to overcome if you will the ambient pressure at that depth yet I actually like it better for the same reason it it may not be so called rated for but it's actually safer because When the hell are you going to be adding oxygen at 250 feet? Yeah, I mean Yeah, well the other thing too is you're carrying a bailout gas Usually you're going to have let's say a 50% bailout gas that you can hook in there too And you can just a little squirt of that gas in there will give you all the oxygen you need at that depth Yeah, or we set our dill gas such that you know the PO2 is going to go to a very Good level just from that so you really would need it and that gives you a lot more control now that now some would argue Well, how do I know it's going to cut back on when I go up? We won't go off on that whole tangent of just how reliable those mechanicals it's a whole Exactly. It's just simple science. It has to go back on So it's pretty reliable and that's never been that's never been an issue then why Georgia? Why would somebody What would you tell them why if somebody's coming to you? They're standing here They're talking to you and I why would you tell them to go spend significantly more money? I think it's it's a generalized statement. I realize but it's significantly more money To buy an electronic re-breather than a mechanical re-breather in general Why would you tell them to do that? What would everybody want to do that? Um, you know, it's well, why not? If that's what you want there's there a lot To me there there are no bad re-breathers or no unsafe re-breathers You know everybody has a reason for liking a particular re-breather and there are a lot of really good re-breathers on the market Um Really really nice. Yeah, so Whatever your reason is for liking a particular re-breather go for it um You won't go wrong, right and most people anyway that I know Will buy another re-breather or get a second one in about two years anyway So it doesn't matter just just pick just pick one and go with it Go have fun. Yeah, but you know most people most people don't have Like I wish I had 10 re-breathers sitting here and be like yeah, what do I feel like today like you know if it was the t-shirt I would love to do that, but obviously most people can maybe afford one So if the question was Georgia, so I can afford one Let's say pricing is not it's not a problem, but I can only buy one my my significant other told me I can buy any of them You're squeezing this answer out of her, but I want to hear You know, I'm not even gonna ask which one I'm just gonna ask what will you recommend mechanical or Electronic if I can only have one Which one good question all right, so I get asked a lot which re-breather should I get and um It's I can't answer that for somebody. I can't tell them what brand re-breather they should get without really knowing anything about them Because what is what I think is awesome somebody else might not like and vice versa Things that I think important may not be important to others like one of the things I also Like is when a re-breather is really easy and fast to assemble and Break down after a dive. I mean, I don't want to be spending an hour after a dive breaking this thing down and cleaning it I've got better things to do so that's also part of A choice in a re-breather. So usually when somebody asks me what they should get Um, I tend to ask them Number one, do they want to be an instructor on it eventually because that might narrow their choices down depending on where they are Right because just because you are a diver on a re-breather and you meet the requirements for instructor There may be one down the street from you and the manufacturer won't allow you to be an instructor Right because of territory right because yeah for a lot of the manufacturers the the instructor is the dealer right, so All right, and so the territories tend to be larger on With re-breathers and let's say Open circuit equipment because the the market is much smaller right If you own a dive shop and you already carry a certain brand of equipment in that equipment manufacturer also makes a re-breather That might be something to look into Um, and then if that's not any of an issue then I'd Want to know um, are you going to be traveling? Are you going to be doing cave diving? Are you even doing cold water warm water? What are your future plans? All of that has a has a An effect on on what what you might choose as a re-breather I'm smiling because I can imagine me coming to you and you just ask me all those questions And I would just look at you and be like yes Yes, I want to do it all all of those things I mean diving deep or shallow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was good. That's sound great Okay, so so Again, the question was more about electronic versus mechanical, but let's just answer this one Someone comes to you and says, you know, I saw this you know new maras semi-close re-breather Versus this closed circuit Which one should I pick semi-close or closed circuit re-breather? What would you say? Okay, it depends on what you're going to be doing Do you see yourself doing any kind of tech diving if yes, then yeah, go closed circuit all right close circuit for sure Now yeah, what about mechanical versus electronic if I could only have one and again, we're not talking about We're not talking about brands. We're not talking about brands Yeah, so my personal preference um Is I I like manual re-breathers Is my personal preference and one of the things also is if you are into photography uh Number one a re-breather is If you're in the photography, I don't know why you're not either so who would agree? Because right used to be like remember the old film days you had 30 36 exposures yeah and about an 80 cubic foot Tank a take of air you'd be done with your 36 exposures and now you've got these great great big SD cards You can be under there for hours. Yes, so right so Yeah, anyway And no bubbles in the real life. It's close for all those things. Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, they get closer I scared a great white shark So for photography the nice thing about the manual re-breather is that The buoyancy I think is a lot easier because you have a constant stream of gas of oxygen going into the loop and your metabolizing it as it goes in You don't have a volume change in the loop So if you're shallow especially that can kind of play with your buoyancy a little bit if you are on an electronic unit You know as you as you breathe the oxygen down then The electronics signal to the solenoid to put more oxygen in so that volume of gas is changing and deeper Does it make a big difference? But when you're shallow where there's really nice light in a lot of life Then um, you can make a big difference in your buoyancy. Yeah, that those are great answers I want to add one thing to this conversation I think A lot of it and this this is how I got into the re-breather that I got into has to do with Frankly, who do you have a relationship with? Absolutely who's going to be your instructor and by the way Guess who you're going to be diving with you're probably going to be diving with somebody local That was your instructor and you almost formed this bond this this little club of folks that you're going to dive with And you have that in common. It's safer. You all know each other's re-breather, right? So if you're in a place where you have an instructor that really specializes in one particular type of re-breather I and you think you're going to remain in that place that's going to be your main place of Learning about re-breathers That's got to be a big part of your decision It's got to be because I promise you you're going to develop this incredible bond More than any other instructor that you have will be with your tech diving re-breather instructor And then you have a blast together and that's what it's all about isn't it? We want to enjoy this experience We're into Technical diving we're into all of these science of diving Concepts that we have to learn and actually apply when we're on a re-breather and we Gus how many conversations do you and I have that are outside of talking about re-breathers? I'm not a whole lot. I mean no matter what we're talking about we keep coming back to it And we'll spend hours texting each other. I just tweak this on my re-breather And I understand what you're talking about so I can reply back, right? It's natural we both on the same unit. So that is an incredible bond That's part of the experience. It's not just the immediate dive It's not the actual only the underwater experience that we're talking about here So when you choose a re-breather you're choosing us a lifestyle around that re-breather And with the people that you're going to hang out with that's got to be a huge part Yeah, you bring up a really good point A the you have to I like doing business with people that I like as well Knowing knowing the manufacturer and liking them is a huge bonus But you're right also the instructor is a big thing so if there Is an instructor in your area somebody that you know that you really like than that was gonna really influence your decision one thing you need to keep in mind also With re-breathers with tech diving is the idea that you might have to travel for training For whatever reasons and I know that's in recreational diving you can go to any street corner almost Yeah, and get trained but You might need to Figure on traveling somewhere for for the training even if it's a local instructor Right because you may want to go someplace else to get your training done Now one of the things I noticed you know just from being in and scuba groups on Facebook and stuff like that is You know one question that came up was Somebody said look I have two I have access to two instructors nearby like only a couple of hours away from me One of them specializes in the unit that I'd want and the other one is kind of an instructor in four of them Including the unit that I that I have but he's not a full-time specialist on that one one unit Do you think it's better to try to find people that are You know perhaps instructor multiple units but special Especially on the unit that you are going for or is it okay to go with someone who can teach you know Many like you and they are teaching them often Wow, that's a interesting question. That's a good question And I I could argue for both actually Because on the one hand if you have somebody that that's all that they dive and teach Then they're going to be an expert at that at that unit Um on the other hand if you have somebody that teaches a lot of multiple units Um, I think that's redundant a lot of multiple units anyway um They're more likely to have a maybe an overall um More experience I guess um Sometimes the person that it's teaching the one unit They're doing it on the side. Maybe they teach one class every you know six months or something And the person that's teaching full-time is having to teach multiple units just to um Be able to make the money to keep teaching full-time right so um Yeah, good question. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think it just depends on the person I think I've been very vague. I know but it's no no that's a good that's a valid answer I think there's plus as a minusist of both that's very logical Here is a big topic Okay, I'm changing gears a little bit you have talked about this at Dimas in the past There is a mindset still out there that I'm not going to switch and go into The word which I don't even like the word technical diving because all diving is technical and because it's too technical which I don't that's why I don't like the word at two complex and it's unsafe You're going into a level that is beyond the no-deco limit and it's very very expensive so You know, this is just not an area that I want to go into even though I love diving and honestly That's you know, I don't I just I have a mindset that I just don't want to go. There's too big of a leap So my question to you is what are your thoughts on that? How do you how do you address that when people talk about it in that way Even if they're not interested in tech diving or I would say yeah, not interested in diving deeper for longer And feeling way better after you're dive what how do we address this how do we Change yeah, I don't know it's so it's usually it's the people especially the ones that are Anti-cave diving and anti-rebrother diving are the ones that have never been in the cave and have never given Dive every breather. Yes And it's a little bit like you know a non-diver telling a snorkeler. Oh my god, you don't want to dive That's really dangerous. You can see everything you want to see from the surface. Why would you put on all this equipment and go underwater? Yeah Because people don't understand it. They don't understand the training behind it the science behind it So I think that's a that's an issue I really get analogy the whole snorkeler with a scuba. Yeah, it's true. I I am I am a reluctant tech diver. I did not want to be a tech diver. I was just very happy. I was a patty course director and I was interested in the techniques of cave diving because I was teaching The rec specialty. I thought how can I teach a rec specialty when I know nothing about You know, reels and tie-offs and things that's true. I thought that it would be Good for me as an instructor and improve my teaching abilities to take a cave diving course And learn all these techniques and I told my husband I said I don't want a cave dive. I just want to learn the techniques right? Yeah, so that became a passion of mine as cave diving And then I said I I know the failing. Oh, yeah, I'll succeed with absolutely So and I did that on open circuit and then I had a lot of my Students at the end of the IDC would be asking about tech diving. So, uh, do you teach tech? Do you take a teach re breather? And I didn't and I thought this is bad because now they're either Gonna just stop and not continue or go somewhere else So I thought I am not gonna dive open circuit tech The weight already I know From cave diving sucks and I'm not gonna take all of that on and off of a rocking boat So um, I thought I'll get into cave into re breather As much as I hated I can't tell you how many people I told um That re breather diving was so dangerous and I would never re breather dive And uh Got into re in the re breather diving and then yeah never looked back. I'm sensing a theme like every time you say I I'm just gonna do this but I I'm pretty sure I'm gonna hate it And they end up loving it Yeah, because you you learn about it and you learn you go oh, I understand now I get it I you know all this thing about you know or a re breather um Will kill you without warning is a bunch of BS Because you can run out of gas and open circuit without warning too if you don't look at your pressure gauge In fact we have more options. We really have more options Exactly way way more options and that's something that that I want to do more of as well some some additional webinars on just Making people understand the basics of a re breather because I think you're right having knowledge removes fear in everything in life Yeah, that's just that's natural the pro a lot of the problem though does stem from not just folks Not non-in professionals. It happens from the professionals right they don't Know what they don't know so dive instructors course directors all the way up the line are making statements that are Frankly flat out wrong. They're just I hear their comments. I'm like that's just not Technically correct what you're saying and that has a huge influence because they're influencing a lot of their own Students and other folks, so and you know that was that was what I did yeah, and that's natural That's natural and um also a little bit could be um Oh, I do it what I do you know Typically people are very much like this what I do is already great and you know you're trying to do It's a jealousy thing a little bit. I've seen it It's a lot of um egos that play around this. I mean no Come on. We just call things the way they are here on our show I don't I don't like that kind of thinking when it comes to diving in general Eagles are a bad bad thing at And to be involved with diving at all, but that comes into play So um tough to overcome sometimes but the same thing happens, you know around cave diving and and all of the all of the The things that people talk about being dangerous is because they just hear the news Which is you only hear the bad stuff you don't hear about the millions and millions of dives that are completed without a hitch Right, right and it's the acts right and then the accidents that happen Uh, they don't understand why it happened, you know that certain rules were not followed. I mean we know we know what Um, there We know what kills cave divers. We know what kills rebreeder divers Um, and it's the same things over and over again um, and all you hear about is oh he was such a great diver Well, yeah, maybe not yeah, I mean in fact we know of a very Uh, very very very sad one of somebody who is extremely well respected Not following a very basic rule one of the most basic rules in rebreeder diving is And your partial pressure by the oxygen, right? I mean that's like day one always know how many Times are they repeating every page of every rebreeder instructor manual know your partial pressure So not following some basic rules typically ends up being the problem and that's ego Ego can kill you, right? You're not better than the rules. That's for sure now Georgia what if you is there something next for you in the rebreeder world? Is there a rebreeder that you want to get certified on and if so why what how could there be something else Out of the 10 that you're already certified on that you would want to now get certified on and then why? I I've been pretty happy with everything that I'm on right now, but Uh, I'm doing a lot more shore diving and I'm not getting any younger I've got some bad knees Uh, and so getting in and out of the water with all the heavy equipment and things are it can be a struggle sometimes you have to pick Uh your entries and your exits and so I'm kind of Looking at potentially like a side not rebreeder Something that um, you know, I can take down to the water's edge and and would you believe I know of one? Really, there's really really really happened to love And I know you would be signing you up. Okay, um me not you wouldn't love it You're Let me tell you the moment that you put this particular one on and we're not here to advertise anyone particular one I don't like to show is not so I will tell you if you put on the one that I know you're thinking about and then you go on to water Because I haven't met anybody that hasn't had this happen. You're gonna go This it just can't be it like I how can I be sitting here In perfect trim neutral. I'm not doing anything at all to do it. It is amazing Amazing, you're gonna be like I just it's hard to believe that this actually exists Which is why it's exploding by the way the one particular one. Oh yeah, I know It's crazy. I'm just hoping my husband's not listening to this. Oh, I'm just telling you unless you want to buy it Don't put it on in the water I'm warning you right now do not put this on in the water on the new on the new katana That it's built around unless you just for because you're gonna buy it I mean if you put it on and you go on to water. It's a done deal. It's like us in the It's over I'm going cave diving from now on It's light. It's perfect. It's easy to use and by the way, I have perfect trim even when I'm trying not to Yeah, that should be careful Okay, yeah, I knew this this is one of the reasons why I've I've resisted yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure This is my husband's used to it that he doesn't he he doesn't buy me jewelry I just get I just get new rebreed right but I'm just here to tell you you're not you're done Yeah, you're it's over here. It's you're not gonna be able to resist too much block coast Okay, ready and then my way can't wait to use it with you. That's gonna be fun. Yeah, I will be back in the US Probably in the next month or so. Okay, well, yeah, you're you're in trouble You know, I was looking as I was preparing for the show I was looking at a lot of articles about what are the top 10 or top five or top three re-breather's out in the market Oh, interesting. Yeah, and you know, one of the articles that I found I guess the one that listed the most they did the top seven Re-breather's is it top by by the way is it top by safety or just a price? I think they took everything into consideration They break him up like depth rating so their opinion of what the top this is their opinion again This might be the people that say you know When a diver runs out of oxygen instead of runs out of air. They don't understand that the tanks don't have oxygen So that might be those kinds of experts But in their you know awesome expertise They rated two of the re-breather's I think they're both electronic because they have three dollar signs right next They are the only ones have three dollar signs right next to them. So I wonder if The dollar signs are the ones pushing this core up Are they your are the dramatic differences? I really have a price to ball Yeah, they're all about the same. I mean in the in the thing about like the the top re-breather's or the favorite or whatever It's it's very regional and it keeps shifting right because there keeps coming out Uh new re-breather's and then it depends on Who is selling them because some people are really good at marketing and so all of a sudden they'll get really hot in a particular area So I'm always wary of these lists of yeah things like that Yeah, it's funny because the one that we dive the kiss is the only one with one dollar sign Yeah, you didn't feel like one dollar sign To me I bought it. I didn't feel like it Well, yeah because I remember lots of dollar signs in fact that I'm still I mean doing dollar signs because The fricking owner keeps inventing the most amazing things all the time and it's like oh man Mike I have to buy that now why do you have to keep making things so awesome? Because the technology George is touched on this right away It's really making Re-breather diving quite remarkable. I don't want to use the word easy, but it's making it safer It's making it more reliable. Maybe that's a good word. It it is easier Based on the technology. I mean just look at the computers we're using right yeah, how logical Our sheer water computers when you're on a movie. That's why most of the manufacturers are going that way now This is why why reinvent the wheel they've they've you make such a great computer Um exactly, but you know, I just I don't think there really is any re-breather that's particularly safer than another re-breather I think I mentioned it earlier that the Most dangerous part of the re-breather is the diver Yeah, and I think they're also very reliable if you if you keep up with the maintenance and You do the the manufacturer recommendations as far as taking care of it I have missed very very very few dives on a re-breather Nice whether it be manual or electronic it doesn't really matter um You know, yeah, I've had um, you know high pressure hose um Go you know explode go bad, but that that happens in open circuit gear too. Yeah, it's funny That's the only thing I had happened as well. It's funny. That's the one thing I had up and yeah pressure who just yeah, by the way I'll just mention most of the articles that are top three best re-breather's out there At least two of the three are manual mechanical re-breather's and then one of them is electric I agree with a person's opinion that's that's yeah, it's you know, it's like everybody has one right there their opinion Okay, so now it like it all depends on on what's important to you exactly Now I promised I was gonna touch on this. I was kind of waiting till the end it is a tough scared Now it's talked about and there's a dramatic Huge difference of opinion out there. It maybe there shouldn't be but there is So here goes the scenario. I'm we're gonna do some practical application learning right now. Okay We have somebody that's at depth They're unconscious. They're on a re-breather the boat Once you get them to the surface is about I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna set this up I'm trapping you is about A five to eight minute swim once you're on that surface once you get them up How are you going to perform the rescue on it in general on a re-breather? What are you gonna do? Tell the audience what you think you're gonna do and why? Because I cannot tell you Georgia how many even my students they hear so many different things and they try different things And a lot of times they come to a conclusion that may not may not necessarily be the one that is their recommended procedures So now I'll stay quiet and listen Well, you know it's um it's like with any rescue. There's no perfect rescue It's only the one that you can do based on the on the circumstances you do the best you can Um, and I'm surprised you didn't touch on one hot topic and I'm glad I'm waiting until the very end even mentioned Well, I may I may depend upon your answer B-o-v non-b-o-v. Yeah, yes, that's another huge one Yeah, so it kind of depends on On the bottom if they have a bov bailout valve or not yeah um People have asked me while I'm here diving mostly with open circuit divers in the lakes and they say you know What can I do for you if something happens and I tell them that if for whatever reason Something you see red lights blinking and I'm not doing anything maybe point them out And if I am unconscious probably the best thing you can do is you shoot me to the surface Because they're very little you can do for me underwater This is um, there's that I have to you have to get me up to the surface and if it's um oxygen toxicity Uh, don't really have to worry about inert gas Yeah coming out of solution Um, so anyway, so now you got them at the surface You've got a fairly long swim Personally, I would probably get out of the equipment as quickly as possible Uh, it's very difficult Depending on the re-brither as well to give rescue breaths Um, some of them you just can't get depending on what you're wearing and what the victim is wearing Um, it's very difficult to get close enough to to give them a breath without Um, dunking them underwater. Yeah, yeah So I guess so you would get at you just to be clear you would just try your best to get out of your gear first Is that what you're saying? I Somehow I would probably would try and get out of both equipment um You know any equipment that we have we have to be prepared to lose in an emergency You know if you're carrying a camera you you got to be ready to in an emergency to let it go right? I think the same thing with a re-brither um That somebody's life is worth more than the re-brither. Yeah, so I think I would probably With a long swim try and get out of the out of the equipment Um, if I didn't need it for the exit Because you can swim faster right with without equipment on Yeah, um and get them Give them breaths along the way and get them onto the boat or shore or wherever Would you give them breaths along the way the entire way even if you didn't See them working after a certain amount of time would you continue to try the breaths? Yes, um, yes, I would for a couple reasons One is that if it's a near drowning we're drowning um The breasts may have an effect and um, we actually Saved a guy's life one time he went to hypoxic in front of us We didn't really notice it because he was underwater and we were in kind of chest high water And somebody saw him from the surface and pointed out and we got him out of the water gave some breaths in the water and then got him up on the dock and um he was blue When we got him out of the water, but um, he's he survived he lived so awesome so So We're the breasts that we gave him in the water helpful. I don't know But it can't hurt right? It's definitely not going to hurt them And you'll probably have observers people that are watching which what's going on as you're bringing this person back to shore or boat and If the person doesn't survive Then I would feel pretty horrible knowing or thinking man What if I would have just tried to give him a breath? Yeah, and then worse is what if the the friends and family Said man if only you know somebody had given him some breaths maybe maybe he'd still be alive So you kind of have to do whatever you can um And it can't hurt, right Do you think do you think um and I always I'm an instructor so I always try I do teach it with the breast if it's best as possible. It's really difficult Because we're simulating so obvious I can't have my students ditch re-readers when I'm doing this exercise So I have to make it very choppy where I'm like all right cut move everybody me Re-readers over to the we're not gonna talk about more $2,000 all right now restart and go back out there Like and that's okay. They're still understanding the methodology and that's what we're trying to teach but I wonder if the breaths are um Let's say are they are they are they not in fact hurting in any way but I heard you say they can't hurt But could they be slowing down the process of getting them to where we know we can truly help them Which is ultimately to give them CPR which is chest compressions maybe an AED which has to be done on a boat or dry land Well, how do you know not conversation? Yeah, I think that you can swim pretty quickly If you have the person cradled in the right the right way and swim and give breast at the same time I mean if you can't maybe that's something that needs to be practiced. Yeah But yeah, I don't think that it would slow it down That much and if it does then yeah, obviously getting them to safety might take precedence I mean, I'm like I said there's no perfect rescue right there's nothing There's no right or wrong. You just do the best you can Now I'm not sure in the patio I off the top of my head for the 40 meter class, but I just did a 60 meter class And there's a rescue in there and the rescue says as a team Right, so that makes sense. I like yeah a lot I actually I'm gonna tell you even in my intro one I actually bring in a team concept I do an individual one and then a lot of times I'll like okay now try let's try this again As a team because we are a team so let's see how much better that goes or not Oh, yeah, why not have them exactly why not have them try it as a team and compare because we you know Oh, here is guys how we got to figure this out. There's not gonna be one way I mean, what do you think you know what worked what didn't work I like that way of teaching where they're kind of figuring it out for themselves anyway Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's not gonna be you know the the instructor evaluation Type of rescue for sure, right? I mean like see you got to do it works and in different re-brothers Required different techniques and then depending on the size of the person victim and rescuer You got to do whatever whatever works. Yes Now you brought up the second hot point so I have to bring it up in the past Wars were fought over this right in the patty in the patty material It says that I have to train on a re-brither That enables them to bail out without removing their mouthpiece that that's what yeah, that was the old standard Is that standard been changed? So now I can do it with a With the USB. Yes, correct. Okay, so what was the philosophy about you? I still have them all start by the way I want you to know for me on a bov because I was taught to start on a bov because Some people I don't want to start a war on this show some people believe that New divers are going to Find it easier quicker less chance of flooding their loop by just Quickly hitting a lever and taking that immediate breath. Okay, yeah, whether right or wrong I'm just saying I start my students on that and then later encourage them to Switch to a DSV if they want to try it. I still do that. But why so now you talk about it. Okay, so I I've taught and dived both bov and dsv um I don't really have a preference. There's advantages and disadvantages to both uh So let me get back to the the whole patty standard if you Yeah, so that started out originally kind of as a safety thing because the idea being that if you have a CO2 issue that Some people claim that they really had a hard time switching and taking that that DSV out of their mouth to be able to switch to a regulator um, and so the bov gives them a couple of breaths that they could take. They stop the switch right you can't stay on that Right bov right um, but it just kind of gave them a little bit of a Extra breath or two that they could take to help them. I think we call it a sanity breath I mean no, I think that was it was more kind of an aid in Because if if you're really breathing hard because of CO2 Um, you might find it difficult to take something out of your mouth that's giving you life right? Yeah To put something else in okay Even though this thing that's you think is giving you life is actually killing you right so that bov was kind of a stop gap thing So you take a couple breaths from it, and now maybe you could switch over to your to your offboard. Yeah Um, and what was happening though is that not every equipment manufacturer had their own bov Especially for CE. It's very very difficult to build um Uh, a bov that meets CE requirements for work of breathing right because that's that's actually the place where the work of breathing is Most affected right because you have gas that changes directions a couple of times So some of the manufacturers weren't able to acquire CE so they were putting DSVs on Well now patty then was requiring a bov so they had to put third party bov's on there which could potentially really affect the work of breathing in a negative way So the decision was well, we shouldn't do that right yeah So if a manufacturer makes their own bov it's tested The work of breathing then that's fine if a manufacturer does not have their own bov Then um, it's not required they can use a DSV so that's that's what the standard is okay um That sounds yeah go ahead okay So when I teach somebody with a bov um, I normally teach them to not use the bov I try I try and tell them you know what it's there if you need it um, but just you know Kind of take a take a breath and then switch over to your to your offboard yeah because at some point They're gonna switch to a DSV and I think it just makes the transition a little bit easier Oh, true once they breathe off a DSV they are never going back Yeah, I I still bring my bov just in case somebody got theirs that's what I'm because I yeah, I'm the team DSV Oh, I switch right after training and I've never looked back about what is that feeling your mouth? Oh my god Yeah, they're usually not quite as heavy and um work of breathing yeah, yeah, it's awesome Yeah, there's some yeah, there's some really good bov's out there um yeah, but then there's also some really not so Not so fun ones. Yeah, okay, so that's good that that's that's a good answer. Do I answer your question? Yes, that's okay I'm throwing that on that particular topic I do think though that if and I don't know what emergency would justify this But if I have someone who's barely conscious like a re-breather diver who's barely conscious who I don't know it's so dark that they can even figure out they have to bail out And I'm doing okay If they have a bov's a lot easier to bail them out absolutely That is the just flip a switch now. Yeah, now they're pretty good. Oh now it's gas. Okay. What's going on like they they my they my wake them up kind of thing Yeah, that's a huge advantage I'm gonna again I came from Uh an instructor that taught me on a re-breather that as you know, right? It's Doug Doug ever saw he he likes to start people off on a bov It's it doesn't this is not worthy of we could go on for a long time about is that good or not But I guess I'm just for you just hit it on the nail on the head Gus. That's why that's one of the reasons why Just a little bit you've seen new people on Re-breather's if they have any little kind of problem they can get Excited pretty quickly. Yeah, right? What would be a very minor thing for us at this point of our re-breather diving can Free them out which is such a nothing problem at the very beginning stages of their training like imagine this dive to or three, right? So anyway, that's that's just something to think about So is there any other uh, right? I know we're getting close to wrapping this particular show up Is there anything else that you would want to say in general about Re-breather diving that we didn't touch on Georgia. I know that's very we touched on a lot But I want I want our listeners to hear a theme about why are we so in love with this in fact if I could only Re-breather dive for the rest of my life I would I would really I'm I love it that So I can I can tell you that if I have a choice between diving open circuit Uh, and not diving I'll choose not diving I don't enjoy diving open circuit. It's loud. Yeah. I don't like the the gas that's being shoved in my mouth Um, I like the quiet of the re-breather. I like the non-stress of the re-breather Um, how many times have you been diving and you get towards the end of your dive And all of a sudden that's when all the cool stuff comes out And now if you're on open circuit, you're going oh my god. I don't have any gas I can't I gotta get out. Yeah, you know on a re-breather you go I don't care. I'm just gonna stay and enjoy this This is so awesome. Yeah, yeah Just just the just the animal interactions that you have you know and if um You know some people are put off by the price but um consider watching television on a little you know 12 inch Screen which works versus you know a giant you know 65 inch or whatever The experience is so much better and you're willing to pay the extra money for that I'm believing you know or or you know the difference between buying you know some practical You know family car versus this awesome sports car. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely It's what what you want your experience to be like You have to think about that and I think it's it's all about because you haven't tried it That you think it's expensive, but once you do it is like I mean I would have paid twice I know what you're good about I was your re-breather instructor Yeah, I'm feel that makes me very happy Awesome, I do a lot more damn it two two questions for you Georgia the first one is um On the last episode of dive talk we were talking about people who want to get into tech diving and one of the avenues to do that is to go into re-breather's um What do you think is it's like the the the minimum Require experience before you getting to re-breather's like should you be a tech diver in open circuit first Are you a cool being a recreational diver? What if I just want to get into re-breather's right after my checkout I've come up and water like where where do you think is the minimum the recommended minimum point that you should get into it You're you're opinion Georgia. Yeah, that's a serially the Is rural what do you think? My opinion is that if you are thinking about getting into a re-breather just do it Uh as far as getting into technical diving Um don't do any open circuit tech diving first just get into a re-breather because you're going to have to unlearn a lot of things that you learned as an open circuit tech diver And one big one that people don't really think about is this whole idea on Open circuit tech diving That as long as you're breathing right as long as you're breathing you can solve any problem And the thing the stage bottle that you're carrying is probably not going to be breathable at the depth you are So just you know stay on whatever back gas you have And they take that mentality to re-breather diving and they don't bail out right This idea that as long as I'm breathing I'm okay Does not work on a re-breather right it could be killing you and you don't realize it And the the stage bottle you have is a bailout bottle it's breathable you have some gas it's breathable at all depths And then there's this this idea that well I have to be good at open circuit because when I bail out I'm going on open circuit And especially when you start doing Um Trimax diving for instance and having to do gas switches and the answer to that is It's part of the course. Yeah, you you learn how to do that Um and manage the re-breather at the same time Um, so I actually prefer training people who don't have a lot of open circuit experience Um, especially tech experience. They're usually easier to train because they don't have these habits that they have to unlearn They're more open to gas planning which is much different on a re-breather than open circuit Um, and kind of the mentality that you have to have as a re-breather diver versus an open circuit diver So um, awesome. I can't even add any words to that. That's absolutely I'd not agree more. Yeah, that's kind of what we talked about for sure on on the last episode It's great to hear you know from you as well that you think the same way because I feel that Going open circuit tech before re-breather makes no sense Absolutely It may be the future diving by the way So Georgia, thank you so much. There's some people are gonna listen to this show. This was awesome I wonder if you'll answer it's a hard one So you mentioned you have like 10 re-breather something like that if you have to run out of your house and get just once Say no, why are you gonna squeeze it out? We've tried every angle. I've tried you've tried No, but wait, okay, you can try it's her preference. That's all good. No, for it You had to keep just one of them doesn't mean that the other nine are garbage Okay houses burning down and you could save one re-breather. That's it. That's your question for life I would probably go in and try and save my cat first. Oh We're gonna assume your cat club everything else is out. That's all been removed Only thing left is a re-breather is a house you could save one You gotta save one. You get for life No, I'm probably gonna die of smoke inhalation or something while I'm trying to choose Man, I knew it. That's a But he's tough one. It's just the perfect thing. I only have one They're all like special children there. She's got different. It is with each one Yeah, I do I do I love them all They all have their own different personalities that I just love Yeah, and I like that. That's like that is a good answer because that's a theme out there We you know what we we want people to be excited about re-breather's there's so many we're lucky that there's so many great ones great technology great reliable re-breather's Yeah, you can't go wrong choose your instructor carefully develop a relationship with that person That's who you're gonna probably end up Diving a lot with and probably will dictate which re-breather you go with and whichever one it is Get ready to have a life-changing experience with your diving probably forever I've never been anybody that goes re-breather. That's like, man. I don't like it. I'm going back to open circuit Never not on whatever not on So I just want to say one thing those when you do that just please please please stay within your limits don't the reader makes it so easy to go deep But going deep is super super easy. It's getting back. That's the hard part especially when something goes wrong So please Just respect respect the limits. Yeah, that is important and there's a ton of training out there like you were mentioning the tech 60 for example I'm certified tech 40 and then I did my 60 with through i n td Like you know, there's just a ton of training out there that can teach you how to do it safely. Yep. Yeah, and it's yeah It's not about people trying to get money out of you on these courses It's it's really is about safety I just know too many people that are not around anymore Because they exceeded their limits great way to add in the show that is absolutely always got to be our highest priority So yeah, thank you. What a great show. Thank you. Thank you so much I can't wait for you to get back here and try that one re-breather that I do You're gonna go far especially once we get those dpds. We have to Man, that's your view we just got. Oh, you guys are killing me Just saying in the cave power. Oh, it's gonna be awesome Georgia if anyone has questions for you. What's the best way to reach you any any place where they can contact you Uh probably Easiest right now is Georgia at re-breather's dot at Wow, okay, that's easy Georgia at re-breather breathers dot re-breather's multiple. Yeah, which makes sense for you plural right dot at Okay, awesome Awesome, thank you so much for for coming on board and thank you everyone for listening if you have any questions also for Georgia I'm happy to relay those just email us at info a dive talk media.com and obviously subscribe to the show You know, yeah, and give us more just also look how awesome this conversation was just because of listener suggestions Absolutely, you know just looking forward to the next future ones. What do you think you so much any final words? I Georgia ended this on the perf usually I have to have final word because I can't help my mouth, but now So we're caught in not all and we're cut. That's yeah, that was great. I did All right, thank you. Thank you guys for having me. Absolutely. Thank you so much