Episode 23: HIGHLY POLARIZING TOPICS

title: Episode 23: HIGHLY POLARIZING TOPICS
author: DIVE TALK
contenttype: podcast
publication: DIVE TALK
published: 2020-11-27T12:00:00-05:00
sourceurl: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/divetalk/Episode_23.mp3?dest-id=1756346

word_count: 19291

Welcome everyone to dive talk episode number 23 this episode. I feel like you know, we're turning 23 that's been that's been a while now that we've been doing this and you know We have been kind of avoiding some of the topics that are very polarizing in the dive industry And I think it's time for us to dive into it because you know I'm a member of a couple of groups on Facebook like dive scuba related groups and there's always people you know Going for one side versus the other in several of these topics. So I figure let's just talk about it on the air yes and I think I Think in some of these we have we have kind of talked about it in the past and we've been like in in opposing Sites, but there's we argued a little bit about it. Yeah, okay, and some of these but there's no you know I've I felt like this my side not always right or no Like I just feel I just feel we're always like splitting in some of these So we had to bring in a tiebreaker and dog rivers all is joining us today on the show. That's not even a tiebreaker That's like an over rule. That's an easy whatever he says I'm gonna agree to like give the two of us agree but he disagrees he goes if I say like a Something and I and then he says no, no, my don't agree. I'm changing my vote Yeah, I'm not gonna respect him. Don't think it's quite to that, but I'm looking forward to a discussion here And dog was on the show before he talks about the top 10 medical questions about diving before so he's a great guest And I think your name comes up in like almost every episode dog for one reason or another so I'm glad yeah I'm glad you're joining us today. Oh, I'm going to do it Absolutely all right So we have a lot of different topics to go over so let's just go ahead and get started one of the main ones that comes up often Some people don't understand it some people are you know struggling to You know see the point of it is the whole idea behind split fins Versus just regular non-split fins split fins obviously being the fins that caught in the middle and had to go first Yeah, I'm sorry. I was jumping out of my seat. I didn't mean to act so anxious about it Yeah, so so what so what's the what's the whole lady which one do you prefer and why? Okay, I'll jump in first. Yes, you know What's that saying that there's a tool? For each purpose you have to pick the right tool and you know, I'm good with tools. I love tools Well, some tools power tools lately. Okay, let me jump into the topic so some people in Scuba diving in general I've noticed they get very adamant about one position on everything and I don't like that I don't I try my absolute best not to be like that and that Is particularly as it relates to fins because Sometimes I actually really like my split fins and let me tell you when I like them if I have a relatively new diver I always tell instructors take yourself away from where you are now and try and it gets harder and harder as you go on with Experience try to relate to somebody who has never felt a particular experience before like When you're diving in the ocean What may seem like a relatively mild day of current to me you and Doug Is not going to seem mild at all to the brand new open water diver It in fact their eyeballs are wide open and if they feel that it's difficult to kick because they're not in split fins They will exhaust themselves quickly because all of the sudden they start using their arms which are useless and scuba diving So what is answer goes back to the fact that I am a dive instructor and I do work with lots of brand new divers That have never been in the open water and I want their experience to be calm and comfortable so in certain situations when it's not a high current But it feels like it's a high current to them. It's very nice for them to have split fins They're not focused on silting out the bottom or how much power they need we're not even going to move around a lot But the way some of the split fins are made today They can keep a pretty significant amount of power but reduce the resistance so they don't cramp up in panic Now of course guys the three of us we love tech diving we like cave flow I mean we seek out environments that are much more advanced than Somebody who is just starting that may want to be or need to be in split fins We wouldn't wear those in those environments But that's not the way to measure are they good or are they bad? Let's measure it from the perspective of the diver and what the environment they're going to be in that's that's how I would really Truly feel about that topic. What do you think Doug? I agree pretty much with Woody We at first reason to do is to kind of think how did split fins come about? I mean why were they invented and as scuba diving has moved to the masses to older people to younger people to less fit people If you think just about the physiology of trying to kick with a regular fin Your foot is extended. That's going to make you prone to foot cramps and and calf cramps if you haven't spent a lot of time swimming Your legs are going to be weak and as Woody mentioned the split fins are designed so that with kicking it's not as difficult for the diver to kick so it's very good for mainly inexperienced Divert early in their career people are not really strong swimmers don't have a lot of swimming experience And it can be helpful as long as you're in a relatively mild kind of environment, you know warm water, Caribbean, not much current I think they're reasonable fins for beginner divers but I think personally if people Start that way they should try to move to regular fins you're going to get a lot more power with regular fins Especially if you try different kicks like we were talking about you if you're trying to move to Defraud kicking and that sort of thing You're definitely going to need regular fins and as your legs get stronger You won't need the split fins And again while the split fins are easier And if you're trying to take them into a mild environment like something in you know key lago or k-men or whatever if you do find yourself against the strong current That could be a problem. So I think I agree with Woody I think split fins are good for certain people especially you know new divers um But again pick the right tool for the for the right job So to for the vote of open-mindedness tool for the right job here comes got so you basically are a rule no matter what you say No, no, no, no, but I agree with you guys I the way I think about it is you know now on the the point that I am and even months ago It doesn't doesn't matter that I'm an instructor now or whatever is You know the split fins and now is worse I feel like but the split like if I was going out the door to dive And I have I have like four fins for some reason. I don't know why I feel like I have one pair for dry suit one pair for not sure Gus their love stuff. Yeah exactly They suffer from a gas gear acquisition syndrome So I have a bunch of stuff But if I if I'm on the way out to dive I would probably grab my you know tech fins I guess which are the apex rk3 which are very common Those are the ones that I would probably grab on the way out like if I didn't know where I was diving Let's just say I'm pretty sure that all of us would grab non-split fins Yes, if we have let this point where we are absolutely But I do agree with you that for new divers it is easier to Prevent some of those problems like cramping and stuff like that and that's where the value comes out but Yeah, and now the reason why I this like them a little bit more now is because now that I'm getting used to doing like the backward kicks and all of that When I have the split fins on and I try them. Oh, yeah, that's hard to use Put them there useless But yeah, I mean it's it's like like you said, I feel that You know split fins if you're new are great regular fins later on all right, so let's go the next one because I was a unanimous All right, so One of the things that came up on on the groups as well is people arguing for the benefit of air integration And I don't know if they were talking about it because of the new Garmin descent computer that just came up and they released an option with air integration the previous version didn't have it And people were like well, what are you complaining about like it's a waste of money anyway It's another point of failure the battery can run out like why not just have an SPG was so special about air integration So the topic is air integration versus SPG let's let's rotate in terms of who goes first because I feel like I I just can't help myself I have an opinion and it's kind of rather strong on every one of these so I want to let's go first Yeah, then I'll go first on the next one. Okay, I'm I have Computers that are both I have things that are not aeroncrated and things that are I always have an SPG backup So my usual Recreational diving I do have an air integrated, you know, I have my tarot hits air integrated Um, and I use that and it's nice I mean you can calculate your sac rate for you and it's it's easy to see and so forth and so on But like was mentioned these things can fail the AI connection can fail though they're much better than when they came out 20 years ago Batteries can always fail and your gas supplies your life support. So I personally always just have a simple SPG just clip to a D ring I don't plan on using it. I'll use my air integration But if somebody were to fail SPGs are not very expensive and it's a very good backup So that's kind of my opinion. I use the air integration. I think it's nice. Do I think it's necessary? No, I mean, I know you guys Had a discussion when the paragon came out and we all got you know to kind of bait a test the paragon And so forth which is awesome computer It's not aerintegrated. I know that kind of bothered the two of you guys a little bit more than it bothered me because I Was really particularly bothered me. I just at that point just clip my SPG off of a Chess D ring and keep an eye on it that way as opposed to only using this backup. So for me personally Integrations nice. I like it, but I don't see it as being as being necessary per se Yep, so I'll go next so I think you know I agree with you on the fact that it's probably not necessary, but I love it I mean, I love the air integration especially when we're Diving on the rebreather because I have a pod or a transmitter on my O2 and a transmitter on my dill So I get to see both tank pressures in one screen. So that is huge for me I don't have to monitor two SPGs um I think that if you're a new diver, you know, you talked about the sheer water perigrain as an example I think you'll be fine if you have an SPG and and and you have the perigrain with you to give you depth and all of the other stuff um But you know, I personally really really like air integration. I wouldn't buy a computer Just for me personally that is not aerintegrated unless it's wired like the petrol for example That is not aerintegrated but is wired into a rebreather Um, but anyway, that's how I feel Okay, so um both very good answers as I would expect here's my opinion when I'm tech diving In my mind, I'm automatically going outside of the no decompression limit It means I may not have the option to go to the surface whenever I want that's what that means I will always have an SPG on every tank And I like my transmitter at the same time I probably will not use the SPG if I have the transmitter But I sure the heck since air and gas planning is like 90% of the Equation when it comes to no decodiving you bet I want that backup However When I'm recreationally diving I'm on open circuit I'm in a no-deco limit situation. I'm very close to my dive buddy at all times I'm not in an overhead environment I do dive without an SPG Not sometimes every time I simply have two pods on my stage one That's how I overcome the SPG issue I have one for my taric and one for my eon core They actually are on different transmitter frequencies So I have two different pods transmitting to two different computers on recreational diving So it gets back to me I'm always thinking about what am I doing Why am I doing it? What's my dive plan and what are the risks associated with it That's how I would answer that question probably all of these questions for me Yeah, I just feel that the air integration is a lot more accurate too like you know you look at an SPG and it has an You know, whatever needle in there and it kind of looks like 1550 But you don't really see whereas like the computer will tell you you have 1546 or whatever it is It tells you exactly I'm talking about PSI And I like that Also that accuracy but Doug is right they do lose Connection sometimes it happens to me a lot In dives and sometimes is too many Yeah, it's a diving right you can for there is no Some for a few seconds though But yeah, I think I think we just concerned for those few seconds or sure that's sure I think that the shear waters report every five seconds or something like that and you may miss like one or two cycles And then you're back on that and I think they may have fixed something with an antenna issue They had on one of theirs for a while So they're much you know, they're pretty reliable but Anyway, I think we've all stated our opinion on that one and it's not that far off right the last thing I'd say with to be honest with you I mean, I again I started like you did Woody I started diving with JVEL so we didn't have SPGs So you uh and the more you dive I mean I'll be honest with you. I don't quote need Unquote an SPG to dive like let's say West Palm Beach 60 feet breakers reef I've been at so many times that I do check my my gas obviously very quickly very frequently But I know exactly what my SPG is going to read when I look at it Now I mean I'm jumping the water. I know it's been about 20 30 minutes I know what my SPG is going to read I check it. Yep. That's where it is I know that in an hour what my SPG is going to be that's what it is So again, that's more of an experience thing and for you know And the other thing to kind of point yes, I think we did some more accurate But it's not that important. I don't really care if it's 14 hundred or 1500 Which is 1457 but I do care if it's 1500 versus 600 Yep, right agree Absolutely. All right, so let's go into the next one because I think this is the one where I'm gonna get chewed on Which is if you have air integration do you carry a backup SPG? Yes or no? Absolutely. All right, so I don't why depends. I just said the answer For me. Yep, so I'm gonna explain why um So I have uh like a button SPG mounted directly on the first stage Which is useless if I'm doing open circuit because that's behind me. I can't see it The only reason why I have that button SPG is so when I open the tank I want to see that you know That needle up to 3000 or whatever So I want to know that the tank is full now. I'm still gonna check my computer Make sure that the AI is working But if I open it and it's like 1500. I don't have to turn on my computer I know I need a new tank. I'm gonna switch and and that's that Can I make a quick suggestion then? Sure If you're gonna pay for a button gauge won't you pay for a full SPG and clip it off a D ring? Absolutely No, I get it and I and I thought about it and I have an SPG. I just Don't think the the extra host and failure point. Are you talking about it on all of that recreational diving right now? Gus are you talking about tech diving or or hopefully you maybe talking about both? I hope not well Okay, so we're gonna talk you about it. Well All right, so so let's talk about both so in recreational diving I have AI integration But I do that if we're two computers So I take my paragran as a backup if I only have my peritix with the AI so my thing is If something happens let's say my transmitter stops reporting for some reason. I'm thumbing a dive Dive is over and even if that is in the worst part of the dive Because of dive because of the gas planning I should be able to go up 30 feet per minute and Be done with the dive and I shouldn't run out of air or whatever you're on open circuit right now I'm an open circuit. Yes, okay, so again Worse part of the dive like tech diving there you have no possible answer to justified not using an SPG I'm gonna I have one comment that no matter what argument you make it doesn't work Okay, think about think about it carefully before you say I would not have an SPG I'm not a tank. Yeah, I'm just gonna tell you how I how I'm set up right now all right on Technical diving on rebreaters, right? Yes, I have an SPG mounted on my bill tank Okay, but the main reason why because I already I also have a transmitter on that tank main reason why is because I can pass that tank to Okay, all right there you go. That's what I was about to say yes That is really the main reason why I have an SPG on that tank is for someone else to be able to read it because my air integration I was worried dug because my air integration is connected to both computers my peridates and my nerd right on my right Don't sit in by my eye. So I have the air reporting to those two computers Um, but I have an SPG. I don't have an SPG on my oxygen tank though. Uh-oh. I don't all right I have a transmitter is never fail any if it fails. I'm going up, right? Well, I got to say another another diver That is very well respected Ed Swartz and does not have an SPG on his 0-2 he puts a transmitter on there to his Terrick usually yeah, and he feels like that's so reliable that that's okay Um, I haven't been able to let go of that yet. I'm Still having the SPG and the transmitter when it comes to the 0-2 um, I Don't know if I could justify it other than I want that extra security blanket because If I'm significantly delayed for some reason I just don't want there to be any risk that I don't know what my 0-2 is I don't know. It's a security blanket. Yeah, to me is you know like Ed I feel that they are super reliable That in the worst case scenario. I'm gonna go up. I should I should know approximately how much oxygen I have because I'm not gonna just keep diving for half an hour if it's not reporting if something is is not working So I'm gonna go up. I'm gonna Just my oxygen and if for some reason I run out of oxygen for because I didn't know how much I had or whatever I can always bail out okay So we are just talking about a the ox so everybody knows and ox a two or three leader Oxygen cylinder on a mechanical rebrea that Gus is never going to pass to anybody else So I kind of could see his point. I was worried before he was talking about it on all of his tags because we passed those tags Any time that I can pass has a nice to have an SPG. You don't know what they're The only tank that does have an SPG for me is the 0-2 tank. That is young a little bit of I can I get it. I'm I don't think I'm ready to let go of both yet But I hear you at least it's not on a tank that you're ever gonna pass to somebody else right? I would be my only added comment to that The only thing I would say about that and again It just I'm a little bit more old school and maybe I'm not I don't have as much a gear acquisition syndrome as Gus but As opposed to having a several hundred dollar transmitter on my 0-2 I have a 40 dollar SPG on my 0-2 So that's what I do and for recreational same sort of thing I have A single computer which may or may not be air integrated doesn't matter since what I'm using That particular decade, but I always have an a 40 50 or SPG It's just simple and less expensive so that that's just kind of the way I grew up and just kind of the way I do it Well, that's a valid point actually you do need to take costs into consideration. I mean that's true and SPG Is as reliable as it gets we've been using those things forever. It's just a needle Right, it's it's very very reliable So that that's actually a really good point that dog made, you know We sometimes were just dismissing the economic value of that and That's a huge difference in costs. That's a good point dog. Yeah, I think now I agree with Doug Never mind. I agree with Doug totally the thing The thing that I noticed though on the people discussing the whole like I carry an SPG if I have air integration No matter what because you never know when it's gonna fail the people discussing that point is always like Well, you need redundancy because if you're transmitted fails You need to be able to tell you know what your pressure is so you don't call out the dive you can just keep diving and okay Well, whatever the transmitter is not reporting. It doesn't matter But the chance of that happening if you are maintaining meaning like me I sent to share water every year here's my computer's my transmitters They replace all the batteries they do all of that the chances of that happening are so small that if it happens I don't mind calling the die You know that's how I feel about it. Okay, well, I'm gonna keep my vote with Doug next one all right All right next one is Do you wear a wetsuit in warm water? So we're talking about 80 something degrees or 30 something degrees Celsius or whatever So like let's say the water temperature is so good that you could dive with a swimsuit. So it's not a it's not a comfort thing They mean like 104 okay, whatever you're you're weird. I don't know what you're even talking about So some four things I'll take this a little bit too because I know Woody wears a wetsuit because he gets cold. I don't wear a wetsuit because I get cold but I think there's two aspects of this one is wetsuit and one is what type of wetsuit Personally, I wear a full wetsuit. It may be very thin A full wetsuit on every dive and the rationale for that for me Is for protection both sun protection topside and bumping into things underwater So cuts and stripes and so forth and so on and also if you think about it So that's why I don't wear a shorty The if you think about it One of the problems we have with a lot of new divers a lot of divers in general is trim And when you have a jacket BC which will probably talk about later said jacket BC you've got weights on your hips You're going to be somewhat vertical or 45 degrees in the water and having some neoprene on your legs can make you a little more floaty It makes it easier to stay in better trim So my opinion would be that wetsuits are better than no wetsuits And full wetsuits are better than shorties for those reasons So I always say this gussets heard me teach it that exact same way that Doug just said a full wetsuit Isn't always just about stay in warm. It's about all of those other things that Doug said and then one more that I always add Do you know how athletes like something Squeezing them a little for endurance They squeeze the muscles the compression actually helps you feel more secure And gives you a little bit more endurance or not only does it help you stay warm Not only does it help protect you from organisms in the water Not only does it help you with better trim But it actually makes you feel more secure and gives you more endurance I have never ever dove in the ocean in 45 years without wearing a full wetsuit ever I've never I've just now I don't even know what it's like Because I would not do it for all four of those reasons Yeah, I agree with it that I have but it's not my usual that be very very rare for me It'd be a very special circumstance for you to do that Yeah, I have to I'm a very minimalistic. I think that the whole conversation about carrying you know You're not minimalistic when it comes to gear Well, but even with gear we're talking about air integration and I don't carry an SPG because I think it's too much But the the whole point is I agree with you that you know, I used to be like swimsuit and like a rash guard But then I started getting pretty close to a bunch of jellyfish and I'm like, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna wear a full-on wetsuit even if it's thin like you said dark because I have a pretty good tolerance when it comes to cold So for sure wetsuit I think the three of us are on on that same uh Like a same side. All right, what's your next point number five? We're still warm Right warm warm weather warm water. Do you wear a glove or no glove? Assuming that is legal because I know in some places they don't let you have gloves but if it's legal and you can wear gloves, do you wear gloves If I have first yeah go first. Okay Um if it's legal And it depends on the task that I'm going to be doing in that dive because you said it's warm, right? So if I'm just doing a beautiful drift dive in South Florida I'm wearing gloves, right? It's more protection. I may have to hold onto a downline At times also when I'm diving in the ocean and those tend to have growth on them and so forth and so on I'm gonna wear gloves I don't see much of a downside to wearing gloves Because I'm not doing a lot with my hands However, if I was going on a dive that I had to do anything with my hands like really detailed photography work or possibly managing a lot of gear uh rebreather stuff things like this like a lot of Little intricate stuff that I need Dexterity in my fingers. Yeah, there's no way I'm wearing gloves and If I know for sure that I'm not going to be holding on to stuff for a long time like if I'm going wreck diving And it's and it's a really high current sometimes we want to hold on to a little bit of that wreck to get us Undercover to a part of the wreck where there is in current gloves are great for that But it really depends so it's not it's not a matter of the warm because I don't think that my hands And in a warm water environment are gonna Really change my overall feeling on my body temperature So really temperature in that case because you said it was warm would make a difference It just depends on what I need my fingers for yeah, I agree with what he as you guys both know I do a lot of photography So I don't usually wear gloves What I usually will do is if I'm going somewhere where there's expected to possibly be current or of the wreck I throw gloves in a pocket so either in a you know a pocket on my bc or whatever So I have gloves in case I were to need them Classically that would come up if you're gonna you know You're doing your safety stopper if it's a decodive whatever and you're going up an anchor line like you mentioned Woody I'll pull the gloves out and put at least one glove on to hold the anchor line So I kind of have a kind of a hybrid answer I will usually carry a set of gloves with me if I'm in that kind of an environment I don't usually work gloves routinely for any dive if it's warm But I'll have them with me for certain situations. Okay, so from now on. Guess what I'm doing Gloves in the pocket. I didn't even think of that. That's such a logical answer Okay, I got another thing in my pocket. Yeah, for me for me as long as this legal I wear gloves even if it's warm I like the one and a half millimeter, you know gloves. They're pretty thin and they're really good when I did my cave training With Doug we did Jenny and you know little river and all of those you know high flow caves and I asked dog If he was wearing gloves and he said no and he you know He kind of showed me like when you pull pull with your palms now with your tip of your fingers or else you're gonna mess them up And that that really helped me but then the last time we were in there We went diving a Jenny I wore my gloves and it was awesome. I felt nothing. I could pull however I wanted Not really thinking too much about it and you know, it was great. I didn't feel anything after the fact so That was good. That's that's me. I just wear gloves as much as I can as long as this legal. All right Um So jinnies I get example 72 degree water. I don't know what that is in Celsius. I guess look it up Um translated to freezing no it's not freezing stop She put low 20s I think yeah like low 20s I guess um It A jinnie you guys wear dry suits. I like to wear a Wet suit. I've done it in three meals five meals and eight meals So the question is if you're in that range and I realized that this is a personal thing But if you're at a at a water temperature where you could be on a wet suit or a dry suit and that's okay either way Um Which one do you go for? I'm not I'm not first, but I definitely 100% have a very big opinion on this uh So I'm not sure I'm not sure I So I think uh I will have a little bit of a caveat on that so I think a lot of it for me depends on how long the dive is going to be um if this is a If it's a recreational dive um and the water is Not cold cold like you said 72 Something to be in the water maybe you know an hour I will usually If it's a warm day I will usually just wear a wet suit because in my mind that's just kind of easier and there's less things to deal with However, if the dive is going to be long Or if the topside conditions are cooler I'll go to a dry suit for sure And I think we're going to talk maybe a little bit later about dry suits wetsuits But the nice thing about The other thing to think about with dry suits and wetsuits um Is especially thick wet thick wetsuits like you're talking about is going to be the fact that with a thick wetsuit Especially if you're diving to any kind of depth You get a lot of crush of the neoprene And the more you do that the less it recovers so the The durability and the lifespan of a thick wetsuit for keeping you warm in colder water Especially deeper is not going to be as long as a dry suit if you take care of it So for me I have the I basically have a A three-mill wetsuit a five-mill wetsuit and a dry suit So if it's five-mill kind of weather or five-mill with a hood I'm going wet unless it's deep or long if it's deep or long I'm going dry And if it's anything colder than a five-mill I'm not going to put a seven-mill wetsuit on go right to a dry suit My up Well, I'm up but you mine it's easy I have like I I love my dry suit. I love it. It's a fourth element custom made. I love it But I tried to wear as leaves as possible. I love a wetsuit. It's so simple Are you just put it on you don't have to worry about it you can pee a thousand times on it You don't have to think too much about it. So as long as the weather the water temperature permiss it I'm going to go wet If it's really cold like we've done dives that are really cold I go dry and I have no problem with that but I just think it's too bulky as so much work to dry Dive or to dive with a dry suit that if I can avoid it I avoid it even though I love my dry suit. Go ahead Okay, assuming that the diver is trained To dive in a dry suit and has actually taken a dry suit specialty class. Yes. If there's If they are the type of person that thinks that they get cold easily Without a doubt I would dive a dry suit every time if the water temperature is below 80 degrees So 79 degrees and below if you were the type of person that chills easy because it's dangerous To get cold again if oh, especially technical diving if I know I have a delay. I can't come up It's going to be a long dive It's dangerous to get cold It's dangerous to your body. It's deemed it adds to the possibility of getting decompression sickness and being in a dry suit Eventually turns into the aha moment where at the beginning you're like why in the world that I do this Versus I like to trim and position and controlling my buoyancy with the air inside my dry suit by controlling where the bubble is Better than I do in a wetsuit. It goes over the top where you actually end up liking that feeling better. Yeah So if it's cold based on your definition diver out there listening of what you think is cold. Yeah And you are trained in dry suit diving. I just I love being in my dry suit. It's awesome now you got to Think about the other points that you guys made is it Is it more complex or there are more risks of Problems with the dry suit. Well, if you maintain it properly If you were trained properly in it and so forth then it doesn't leak it shouldn't be But those are additional considerations. You can't ignore what you two said that is a true fact Okay, but you know, you said for you anything below 80 degrees, which is 26 Celsius by the way uh, really really cold man on a long dive. I mean 72 in the Florida Springs honestly It's freezing. I mean I'm shivering in a wetsuit. I mean and I oh by the way I don't I don't own anything below a five mill I don't know what it's like to dive in a three mill. I would never dive in a three mill I haven't been in that environment I think what that we need to point out since this is a radio show Is that Woody has about two percent body fat? Uh, Gus and I do not have that problem So I think part of that is if we're if the listener has got Woody's physique I agree entirely with him that you're gonna move to thicker wetsuits and dry suits a lot sooner uh, but that's unfortunately Woody's physique is not the usual Americans physique So in our at least our American audience. I think They don't have as much applicability as it may have maybe in the Asian population And that no, but that's not an invalid point I'm not saying I have a good physique. It's that I have the time I have the type of physique like I said when I started this that I get cold easy So I don't if you're that there are divers that tell me the same thing I get cold easy or I don't get cold That dictates a lot of this decision. Well, I was thinking about Joseph when he did his cave diving I was there for that for the for the cave training And he was saying that he was starting to get cold after like an hour diving in 72 with his dry suit But then I realized he also has like two percent body fat. So it doesn't really Yeah, he's a cold water diver what he did there because I was there that is he just didn't bring his normal Undergarments because in his mind he was like 72 guys. I don't even 50s I'm not gonna bring all my thick stuff to put in the dry suit, but then he realized that got him chilling So we were we were we were talking I was talking to Aaron from the dirty dusting We were talking about Chuck Lagoon and he wears a dry suit a chuck Awesome. I was blown away like why it's like a million degrees. No, it's it is it is very nice water temperature He said that he mainly because there's still like fuel in the water and he feels like it protects his his body better Yeah, the other thing to bring up also like I brought up in mind is the top side Situation because if the water it's a and west palm in the winter maybe you know 72 74 If it's sunny and warm outside I'll do a wetsuit if it's a cold front just come through so the wind's blowing and it's 55 or 60 outside I'll dive into dry suit because I don't have to worry about the surface interval getting cold So I'm gonna use the verb for kind of both things rather than a big heavy dry A big heavy dive jacket. I just come up and leave your dry suit on Yeah, that's a great point. All right next topic and this is one where people are ready to fist fight over as well is Steel versus aluminum tanks You know steel tanks have you know really have people that are really really huge fans of steel tanks I personally like to dive with steel tanks I think they're awesome. I don't like carrying them as much as I like diving with them But how do you guys feel about the two of them? And maybe you would or or dog you guys can talk about the I guess the characteristics of those tanks when they're full versus empty on the water. Okay. I think dog is first this time all right My personal opinion is I prefer aluminum tanks for the type of diving that I do in the ocean because where I dive it's warm So and I don't have a huge air consumption. So for me aluminum tanks are fine For the ocean diving I do if I were diving routinely in salt water that was cold So I was in a dry suit and I needed the extra weight as opposed to carrying extra weight on a weight belt or or so we just go right to a steel tank because that just adds the extra pounds for you Like you're mentioning that the weight characteristics steel tanks will stay will stay negatively Boyant throughout aluminum tanks like aluminum 80 I think changes something something like four to six pounds Like it goes from three or four pounds negative to two pounds positive if it's full versus empty So there's a little more characteristics there um in terms of fresh water Again, I don't think it makes a lot of difference I know a lot of the cave divers prefer steel you can get a lot more That's for two reasons for for waiting with dry suits But also for the fact that you can get a cave fill and crank at 26 50 tank to 4,000 which I'm not recommending in the room. It happens all the time in cave country I personally don't need a lot of weight So that doesn't really come up for me. I mean I can in a in a dry suit In fresh water. I don't need any extra weight at all like even with the regretter or whatever so aluminum tanks work fine for me But I know for a lot of people if you need the extra weight I would use deals for the extra weight And if you're willing if you're wanting to pump them up to get extra extra volume of gas by kind of going to high pressures But for me personally aluminum seem to work fine Yeah, my answer is very similar automatically steel if I'm in a dry suit because And I'm in a BCD that doesn't have integrated weight pockets So if I've been a BCD that doesn't have integrated weight pockets and I'm in a dry suit, that's steel Which basically means I'm tech diving on my rebreather because that's All I would ever want to tech dive in my kiss rebreather if I'm Um, if I'm recreational diving like Doug said and I have integrated weight pockets in the ocean I only need six pounds with my five mill hood invest on No big deal aluminum's fine for that purpose. So for me it really comes down to the Not wanting to wear weights in other than integrated weight pockets Yeah, I do like you know like I mentioned steel tanks mainly because of that added Bones of being able to pump them up a little bit high pressure So that that's awesome, but yeah the extra weight really really helps all right number eight and I'm sure Doug is gonna be all over this one People are very very fanatic about spare air and talking about the benefits of it and the fact that he can save your life Um, and then there's others that will jump in and be like well why pay 300 $400 for a little kind of spare air when you can get a small bailout tack like an aluminum 19 or aluminum 40 event Um, how do you feel about that Doug? Am I sort of this? Uh, let me first ask you guys don't get any sponsorship from spare air right you're not in just no money coming to you guys No, and uh and and and just so you all you guys also know when I answer it mine's gonna absolutely Very if we're talking about an indoor aquarium versus any other on the open water environment right go first time I think the the key here is you always want to have in the and the advent of them of an emergency You won't have enough gas to get to the surface uh safely So that's the first thing so the question always is how much volume that is um, if you're diving with um a single cylinder Uh, and you're diving relatively shallow and you lose your air supply you can probably easily make a you know a And we're exploring a set um if you have a buddy run out of air in your shallow assuming you're not also about it of air you could safely buddy breathe and come up to the surface um for anything that's relatively deep uh, and that isn't the eye of the beholder but let's say near the near the end of recreational limits Or especially if you're deeper i personally need to have enough gas to get yourself safely to the surface if you calculate With a given sac rate surface air consumption rate that's relatively conservative um And you look at going 130 feet or so to the surface With at 30 feet a minute and doing a safety stop um, you're gonna need at least Assuming you're not stressed Uh, which you will be if you're out of air uh, you're gonna need at least 10 or so cubic feet of gas I think I calculated one time at like 9.25 or something With any kind of stress you're gonna put yourself somewhere in the 13 Uh, to 16 cubic feet of gas need to get to the surface So spare airs when they first came out uh, we're very very small uh, they Subbs when we got a little bit larger like the three cubic feet I think the latest one is six cubic feet or something like that Well six cubic feet's not gonna do it for me uh, I would rather have a aluminum 13 or even aluminum 19 um with a regulator And have an independent source so for me it's depending on what I'm doing Uh, but I want to be able to safely get to the surface in any given situation So where would a spare air be helpful? Uh, spare will be helpful if you're doing an aquarium dive So you're 15 20 feet and by OSHA recommendations you have to have some form of bailout Uh, that would that would qualify in my opinion Um, when I I taught a um, there's a new rebreather that we kind of designed to kiss the The an auction rebreather for diving in aquariums and the bailout for that was a spare air That's how we designed the course uh, but beyond that kind of environment I personally don't see a good use for a spare air. A spare air will get you to your buddy Uh, you know a couple of breaths to get you to your buddy Uh, but then you're still like a situation of having to air share on the way up to with a buddy that if you run out of air Maybe he's also getting close out of air and now you have two people with an emergency So I would personally rather just have enough independent gas to get me safety to the surface The volume of which depends on what I'm doing recreational diving that's going to be a 13 or a 19 for anything relatively deep I agree with 100% with that entire comment I would literally was going to say almost the same thing the only other part I would add is I want you to picture that a relatively new diver ran out of air They're going to freak and their sac rates going to fly Yep, they're going to take a couple of breaths because we test these at the Georgia aquarium a couple like And maybe one more and it's going to be out of air Now if you thought they freaked after running out of air on one tank when they run out of air on the second one That could put them into a tail spin of a panic. I think it's actually more dangerous The other reason I think it's more dangerous. I think Doug touched on that is they may They may under plan their gas because they feel like they have this backup with the spare air So they're not being conservative with their gas planning Which is terrible a spare air would be like option D Yeah, and even the aquarium environment. It's like option D It's not action at B or C. So I would say Yeah, we were in my tic Georgia aquarium because we're required and we may only have to go up like 10 feet Outside of that. I'm glad we're not sponsored by him I don't ever remember wearing one in any open water environment in my entire life of diving No, and again, I think that that discipline that you were talking about sometimes it's not there people rely on the spare air like it's a magic, you know Potion here that you can take a death and it's just not gonna work like I saw a guy that said Well, I own one because the place that I go diving requires you to have a separate You know tank if you want to go solo diving and this checks the box and I'm like, but what if you actually needed And you're solo diving like there's no let me breathe from my body. You're alone I think he's pretty useless. So anyway, we uh, yeah one one last comment on that I agree they're fairly useless but the issue of why you would need gasses two main reasons You're gonna need that one is gonna be you have some sort of catastrophic, you know, blow and owing blow first aid something at depth Which is incredibly unlikely, but clearly possible The other is you haven't been paying attention or had some sort of issue and somebody runs out of gas Either you run out of gas or your buddy runs out of gas And either those scenarios if you've been diving together doing the same dive for about the same amount of time And your buddy runs out of air Um or you run out of air then you or your buddy are gonna probably also be low on air So that's a whole another reason to have have the backup because you say oh if I run out of air I'll go to my buddy. Well, what if your buddy is at five or seven hundred psi when you run out at zero Uh, then you're trying to come up on a very little amount of gas and the person's out of air is quite stressed and going through gasses very quickly if you have a Uh, redundant air source that can be especially if it can be passed off or just even with an adult, you know Regulator then if you run out of gas you're covered and also if your buddy runs out of gas You can give him that regulator and you still have your full air supply to help you go up, you know That you have been you know This left from what you've used to get yourself safely in the surface. I think it just adds safety on lots of different levels Great point All right moving on um I think we talked about this before but let's just talk about it now as well which is There is a ton of people that swear by diving with a snorkel no matter what and then there's a bunch of people that don't see a whole lot of use on diving with a snorkel um I know that Depending on agencies which is another thing that we haven't talked about but depending on the agencies some of these skills And with you being at the surface with a snorkeling your mouth Like you're you know that that's the the final I guess position a final step is get your snorkeling your mouth get ready to be Rescued or whatever it is um How do you guys feel about snorkel? I'm first yeah great So here's what I got to say again New divers that are diving open circuit in the ocean If they have to pull themselves a little bit on a line from the tagline on the back of the boat up to the bow to end up going down a descent line They're gonna suck down half of their tank Just getting to the down line. I'm not kidding you. I've seen it a million times They're not able to control their breathing that well yet They are nervous just by the mere fact that they feel a little bit of current and half you just by the fact they even have to hold a line Is already got them nervous and next thing I know I see bubbles flying everywhere right before I go down I check their air and they're at 1500 They used 1500 have from getting to the back of the boat to the down line. We haven't started the dive yet Perfect reason why I teach them switch to your snorkel On the down line now they may have to get used to blowing it out There's some waves a little bit of water may get into it But it's really nice for that type of new recreational diver However, if we're going to be on the kind of dive where you're jumping in getting down and going to be negatively buoyant quick Just in and down in the water then frankly, they're kind of uncomfortable They're in the way they can make your paint they can make your mask strap slip a little bit which could cause Possibly some leaking a little bit So when I'm technical diving I never wear a snorkel ever And it's way more comfortable and it's not in the way especially on a rebreather How in the world would you have a snorkel when you're pulling a rebreather loop over your head Over the snorkel that's another item just totally in the way So new divers Gonna be pulling themselves a little bit on the surface for some reason It's a good idea I see it in action outside of that as soon as I can be diving like with you guys There's no way I mean this is God why would I want that Annoying device on my face. I feel like I want to bring a snorkel on the next cave That's just the people now imagine deep in a cave somebody sees you with it. We won't let you It's not actually could be considered dangerous Yeah, the other the other time where it comes up also if we're being uncomfortable is any you know A lot of us dive itself lower a lot. Just any kind of current is a real problem with a snorkel It's really a pain the next so what I I personally I always have a snorkel in my bag Just in case like Woody brought up your you know, it's gonna be a situation You're gonna have to pull yourself to the anchor line or something. I say okay reasonable to have an I'll throw it on my mask The other thing I keep in my bag. I have a collapsible snorkel And what I do it as I'm teaching and by my agency. I have to have a snorkel I have one a collapsible snorkel that's in a pocket Yeah, that way I can get to it if I need it But I as I'm technically not not away from standards But I don't use it. I'll tell you that one of the dive agencies Raid which is one of the relatively newer agencies coming into the US When they one of the skills you learn as an open water diver because they actually dive perfectly dive long hose You don't have to but they they they kind of recommend it Um the first thing you learn is how to Remove and replace your snorkel that's the that's one of the first skills. Wow. That's cool Yeah, you use a snorkel you take it off you stow it Uh, you didn't come to the surface you then take your snorkel put it back on and use your snorkel So in the first skills you learn as an as a regular open water diver is to uh remove and replace a snorkel Awesome love that that that's a skill. I've never actually Seen anybody do that's that's so smart. That is interesting. I like the I like I like that the the portable snorkel and the Revenue replace it. Yeah, so I think you know when it comes to snorkel you should have one at least on your back You shouldn't dive with one all the time. It only only if you need it I guess Okay, um, okay So there's another one that may maybe more for like old school guys when they talk about he's talking about 20 By the way, that's us your time. Yeah, that's you too Is you know, why do we still teach people how to use tables? Should we just focus on teaching them how to use computers properly instead of tables or how do you feel about this? I'm a very good one. Yes I am both an old school guy So I start diving when all we had were tables Well before computers And secondly and secondly, I'm a math guy my undergraduate degrees in math So that's how kind of my mind works And thirdly, I am a very very very strong component What it comes to anything Understanding where the information you're getting is coming from how you're getting it and how you use it so My opinion even though it's not required anymore I always expose students to tables and the reason I do it. I don't make them you know learn all you don't have to do a thousand problems of what you're Uh, you know, I wouldn't miss g diver do a c diver in this kind of all but I want to have them understand the concept of what's going on in their dive computer So I have them I saw them here the no decompression limits Here's kind of what happens the longer you're staying on the surface of kind of the residual nitrogen group But mainly to show them kind of what happens and how you're you're off-gassing And that's why you can have a longer dive the longer you stay up or if you go shallower So I use the tables so they understand the concepts and not just follow remote just you know Just oh, this is what my computer says. This is what I do But I like them to actually understand what's going on like I've talked with both of you guys before I do the same thing When it comes to a rebreeder you could just say I'm just going to follow my PO2 Uh, and if it's too high I'll add some air if it's too low all that oxygen I want people to understand what exactly they're breathing That's why people calculate what is the fraction of oxygen in their loop They're breathing to get that one point two that one point three so they really understand how they're blending Nitrogen on you know nitrox on their back So I personally like the tables. I don't make it a big deal. I don't make people take exams using tables anything like that Um, but I do like them to understand where the table you know where the computers came from And kind of how those concepts can be very important So you really understand what's going on with your body while you're diving I made my children Uh, do tables for the first hundred dives Um because they're my kids I can make them do that Uh, so they have a firm understanding of things and after that they go to computers like everybody else But I think it's important to understand the concepts I don't think you need to be the world's greatest uh, test taker with tables But as long as you understand what's going on the thing that's important that me my long-winded answer Yeah, that's a great answer Well Okay, I I grew up also with tables I Have there was no dive computers there weren't even tables. I actually had a wheel that thing was the craziest thing ever and What I do is this dog what I do is I explain I try to make them understand what our tables telling you Versus what is a dive computer telling you and what I mean by that is that a table is a very In some aspects conservative way to plan a dive So it's going to tell you it's going to make an assumption for the most part that you're going to be at a certain depth for a certain amount of time And it doesn't know that you're going to be changing depth Possibly during that amount of time So it's it I I teach it in a way we'll like look take a look at these tables This is this is saying this is the absolute most amount of time you can be at that particular depth And if you were the entire time at that Depth for that amount of time this is what the table is thinking you wouldn't have to do On your next dive Okay, you've looked at it great Maybe you know how to use it maybe you don't but at least you see and start getting your mind wrapped around the logic of A dive computer knows where you are all the time in every part of your dive And it's it's basically going to allow you to Have More time probably on a dive because you're not always going to be at that particular depth the entire time And how do you see that will you just come up now? You're getting them to learn about the process of nitrogen absorption as it relates to pressure Yeah, right? So it's a great Introduction to making them understand Depth and time as it relates to nitrogen absorption the concept But you're not going to take your exam using it. You're going to plan your dives using your computer Yeah, we have moved away from teaching dive planning with tables other than sort of a a learning aid if you will It's sort of another way of enforcing the same concept Yeah, the only thing I also use the tables for Again for the same kind of just a teaching moment is if you You know, I show people okay, let's say 60-foot dive you know in the old school 60-foot dive 60 minutes for argument sake Then I show them you know if you're moving groups If your residual nitrogen time happens to be 40 minutes guess what you've got it 20-minute dive because your your length of time is the same Yeah, you're always 60 minutes where is if your residual nitrogen time drops to 20 minutes now you get a 40-minute dive This it kind of show them that what you're really doing is it's it's as if you've already been diving for X amount of minutes That's your residual nitrogen time. So it's kind of what same thing you're talking about But just try to get them to understand the physics of what's going on in their body. Yep, exactly. Yep. That's awesome All right, let's move on because I feel the word we're on sync on that one Okay, so here's an interesting one the tank valve when you open a tank Do you go all the way open and leave it there? Yeah, do you go all the way open and like crank it half a turn back Or do you barely just crack it open and make sure air is flowing and leave it there? I I was brought up with the open it all the way and do a little crack back I was brought up with that so it's a habit What's the logic behind it is somebody can quickly turn it right and they're not confused on which direction it is And they don't accidentally turn your tank off. I know that's terrible guys and you're gonna be like Really they would feel it one way and accidentally turn it all the way off because it's not moving Maybe probably not anymore But if they if a dive master as you're walking up the boat just feels that it's a there's a little bit of wiggle room when he gets When he turns it one way then he feels it stop At that point he knows it's probably In the open position because that's how you set up your your tank and it's that's not a good reason But I'm just giving you that's kind of what I do right there's actually a very good podcast Tech Clark does Called the dive locker Podcast which I'd recommend people take a look at but he did that actual very a whole episode on this and the issue is And I will yeah grow up exactly the same way and my habit is to turn it all the way on the and half a turn back because I've just been doing it that way forever But with the current tank valves when people actually looked at this you should just turn them all the way on There's not the issue the valves are so good now. There used to be a problem with things sticking That's not as much of a problem with the with the latest generation of valves And there have been multiple multiple episodes of people turning the valve the wrong way I'm not sure how that happens. I mean it's a lefty lucid righty tidy, but whatever But multiple the this reality is that this has happened and people have turned their valve all the way off and then cracked it a little bit open And that works fine on the surface till you get about 10 feet deep and then you get nowhere That's right And with that cracked open you may still see you know a normal pressure You may even do a couple of breaths on the surface and you may still not have any you know It's not like it's turned off and your your gauge is dropping So I think the the correct answer Would be to teach people to turn the valve all the way on And leave it that way But there's so many of us that had this thing from so many years back that I'll be honest with you my habit And less like consciously think not to do it as I turn it all the way open And I turn just a little crack back for exactly the same reason you said for the dive masters kind of kind of check it and so forth But I'll tell you that the data does not support that Because if if you look at the damn statistics you look at any kind of accident statistics For some reason there's been a significant number of of accidents where people had it completely closed And then barely turned open So I would have to say that the correct answer is a turn of valve all the way on but I'll be honest with you And I don't always do that though I probably should yeah So when I was when I was taught open water I was taught open it all the way and then crack it back a little bit just like you guys And I remember asking my instructor why is that he's like I don't know that's how I was taught So it's like this thing that is past like generation to generation of divers But then I looked it up online like I always do like well he didn't know but like I need to find out why I'm just curious Why and it was pretty much like no that's that used to be a problem It's not anymore open it all the way so now I've been doing that But on the O2 tank on the rebreather I noticed that David Opens it a little bit like just like one full turn and that's it whereas I go all the way open I go all the way too and I yeah He was trying to tell me that it doesn't matter. It's flowing the same And I didn't have ammunition to argue with him. I said well I've always been taught to open even the O2 tank all the way Well, what he said was that if for some reason the the short of valve doesn't stop or the First-stage fails and is letting all the air he can cut it all quickly because it only did like one turn How do you do a duck? I don't have a shut off valve of my O2 you guys probably know that so if I had a shut off valve I turn all the way on I turn mine not just a turn but two or three turns But not all the way open for that exact reason if I have a if I have a boom scenario I want to be able to turn off quickly since I don't have an automatic shut off valve. I just haven't done that online I know if I have it turned two or three turns I can turn it off fairly quickly Okay, that's the right answer, but that's why I do it Okay, and I do have a shut off valve and I've always told these guys to have a shut off valve. Yeah, so they off shut off valves I do too speaking of oxygen. The next one is O2 clean I you know some yeah some some shops and some some places hold this as Like is that O2 clean or not like it did you the you touch it after he was O2 like is it really that important? Wow Amigos dive center. Well, how list Uh, I think I think that's to be honest with you there's probably More of a liability issue with that than a true yes Physics problem with that. I mean the concept is very very good Which is that to have a fire you have to have more than 40% oxygen You have to have heat and you have to have something that's combustible right? So the idea with having things O2 clean is so that when you are filling this tank with oxygen And it heats up a little bit that you don't have anything that could spark a fire So I think that makes perfectly good sense I don't think That it really makes that big of a difference though. I think it's a good idea. I'm not I'm not a you know You know, I'm not a zealot when it comes to O2 cleaning. I think it's a good idea any of my tanks that That are gonna have oxygen in them. I make sure I've got vitano rings and so forth and I have all my my Regulators service with you know viton kind of stuff for that reason But if I happen to use my regulator on an air tank and I obviously don't want to put it on my 50% bottle for a tech dive I probably you know could be crucified for this if you know by the zealots, but I don't bother I just use it on the 50% I doesn't I doesn't really bother me to that extent. I mean I you it used to bother me And I used to be a zealot about it, but I got to be honest Wayne just told me It's ridiculous. I mean I don't and I don't have good science behind did I get it Particle in impairment it could spark something is better chance It's 100% out to he's like there's no way you can do that. He said that I I challenge you to even try to make it to that I'll be honest with you now I'm starting to think about what Wayne tells me and I'm like it's really any truth to it So I'm really this is one of those answers. I'm actually I don't know now right. I'll tell you that I do I know of one scenario Um, and it's kind of cute little anecdote. There was a guy that um was looking at looking to kiss Rebither Doing it doing a demo with me And was doing a demo with another brand which was an electronic reader And when he went to the other Rebither demo And they turned on the O2 tank it caught fire At the pool so the whole rebither was now on fire. They had to kick it into the water to get the fire out Uh, just turning just from turning on the valve because the pressure change you know the rapid pressure change in it sparked and caught fire It's amazing interestingly. He went ahead and bought that rebither which It was a bad word on fire in front of him not that particular Not that particular unit obviously that particular model. So I thought that was interesting But that's the you know, I have heard of that happening with uh Turning on a oxygen cylinder an oxygen cylinder not just like a 50% of what I would have a oxygen cylinder And having uh having sparks occur. So yeah yet, but that one may have been O2 cleaned and So I get see so I'm saying that maybe it doesn't make a difference whether it was O2 cleaned or not That's Wayne's point That's not gonna make the difference but I'm If you're shot at a solid and you did not have an O2 clean your liability situations a lot different Yeah, so I guess we I guess we'll say you should have an O2 clean, but I don't really know why Yeah, we know nobody knows um Yeah, no, I agree with you. I don't I don't know why like even with the with the transmitter I have on my O2 tank I didn't buy a shearwater one because the shearwater transmitters are certified up to 40% O2 they're not O2 clean so I ended up with a Think it's an apex or I don't remember what what the other one is but it was O2 clean It works with a shearwater computer. So but yeah, it's I don't know I still don't know if it's really that important. Maybe someone listen into the show can let us know why and like Actually show me evidence. I would love my younger comment on it. I you think here and oh I know for sure he has an opinion on this. I can't remember what it is, but we gotta Ask him all right. I'll be working there at the factory next week by the way, so That's true if you guys need anything done on your re-readers. I'm the new factory line worker. Oh boy For a week. I'm glad I already have mine Um, so here's the next question. I remember when I went to my checkout dives and stuff Somebody told me is like you know eating breakfast We were doing a very early dive and they were like oh, I never eat before my dives or someone says no You can eat but try not to drink like orange shoes and like acidic stuff because that's back for the dive How do you feel about that? I'm probably a poor person to ask because I'm not a breakfast person. So I never eat breakfast for the dive But it's because I never eat breakfast period um I think it depends on the individual. I think the Obviously don't want to be hungry during the dive if that if you're a breakfast person is probably reasonable to eat breakfast It's probably best to especially if you're prone to see sickness To be careful exactly what you're eating Uh, so a small portion of something relatively bland is probably a better idea than having a big greasy Bacon and egg breakfast. Uh, if you are prone Uh, to see sickness But some people I mean some people have just iron stomachs eat whatever the heck they want Other people can be really very careful and just get very very see sick So I think it's man. It's kind of an individual kind of learn, you know That the idea would be if you're a new diver to try and either not eat or eat something very light Uh, and just kind of see how you're gonna handle especially the first time you're gonna go out and it's a little bit rough And then to see what your own body, you know will tolerate Yeah, so there's nothing wrong with eating before diving like some people are like never eat before diving No, I don't think it's anything. I don't think it's anything physiologically wrong with I think it's more of how you're gonna tolerate it As far as a sea sickness and that sort of thing Yeah, I I try to eat one thing and it's horrible I have to close my eyes and concentrate as hard as I can and that is a banana Oh my god, which are Disgusting but besides the fact that that And I think there's some truth to it right doesn't the potassium potentially help it gives me it makes me feel a little bit more energetic and less chance of cramping I thought I read somewhere that like that's a myth like is that a myth like Yeah, you need a ton of bananas that's a significant amount of potassium That's what I heard you have to eat like 75 bananas for actually be okay Why can barely 75% of one banana let alone 75 bananas Exactly Okay, so the next one was you know last time but I don't know if it was when we were cave diving or when I was going through my cave training We say that that Cadillac motel down in high springs And you know, I noticed there were some some people talking Outside one of the rooms because there's you know a sitting area that by the door as you guys know They were talking about diving and they were all like smoking and drinking Wine and stuff like that talking about how the next thing we were gonna hit blue grotto or whatever it was And you know, I when I went through class and I think you know, I went through SSI And I'm pretty sure every agency tells you this is like avoid a smoking Smoking and drinking alcohol if you're gonna be diving like the next day. I mean it's moderation I mean if you guys a beer or a glass of wine But if you're getting trashed and drunk and you're gonna wake up with a hangover which is caused by dehydration And we know dehydration is a very bad thing that is a big contributor to decompression sickness I mean moderation. I don't drink by the way if I'm diving the next day Especially technical diving. Yeah, because I just don't I don't I don't drink before diving But that's just my own personal I don't think much to begin with But I agree entirely with Woody which is if you if you if you're on a live-a-board I mean the usual plan with live-a-board is once you drink you're done diving for the day But if you know somebody wants to have a glass of wine with dinner or whatever I think that's reasonable night I agree with what you wouldn't get hammered Just because if you're hungover, you're not gonna be a very effective diver And you could you're not gonna be able to concentrate well and more important like you mentioned Usually you know alcohol is a diuretic So if you drink that much you can probably get yourself a little bit dehydrated dehydrate has its own own risks and obviously I have to say this as a cardiologist nobody should be smoking period Yeah Nobody agree with that exactly Okay, so I think we're all on that yeah, you have a beer no problem Don't get hammer all right next one. I think what do you brought this one up? Which is you know having all of these super complex BCD's like massive jacket style they hug you all And then there is the other side with where people have the minimalistic BCD's that are super small Yeah, you know well once you start diving with the minimalistic BCD's like the ones we use at the Georgia query I mean, the little scuba pros are something like that You're not gonna want to have the big BCD ever again, but it's the aha moment again It takes a minute. They're a little more squirrely when I mean by every little movement They move they change your position quickly a lot of the bigger BCD's will make arguments well It's back inflated so it throws you into trim and that it's nice to have big pockets to carry extra things I would say maybe I find it better to be minimalistic I find it easier to dive you're more streamlined, but that may take some practice So I don't like those big giant BCD's the other thing is they tend to bring everything one time I saw a guy He brought a bot and brought every single thing that he ever bought It's safe. I didn't need it does not need it for the dive yet every really owned he even brought I don't know why they sold them this a keychain Keyholder there was like ten keys dangling up in his face underwater, and I'm hearing it like what is that? Right because he bought it so yeah, you know what I mean so people's like I got to bring it I got to hook everything and use every pocket in this BCD because I paid for it I don't like that. I want to have as little as possible, but bring the essential safety gear Yeah, I agree I think a a jacket BC The advantage of a jacket BC for new divers Is it tends to float them kind of straight? You know a little easier to float straight up in the water Which makes them more comfortable on the to be honest with you that shouldn't be a major issue and purchasing a BC in my opinion But that's where the comfort is the problems with the weight pockets again. You tend to have poor trim They don't tend some do but they don't tend to have a lot of trim pockets to kind of move things around whereas with a back you know a minimalistic kind of backplane wing type of BC just a you know Plastic backplate with a wing kind of a minimalistic thing. You're gonna have a lot more a lot better trim Again, you can add pockets if you need something But I I definitely prefer more of a minimalistic BC As far as the size the other thing you do need to be aware of though this goes back we're talking before Is you need to make sure you've got enough lift? You know travel a travel BC for the Caribbean that's back mind this got you know 20 pounds of lift or something Which is all you're gonna need the Caribbean in a three mil wetsuit in aluminum 80 It's probably not the same BC you're gonna want if you're diving in you know dry suit with With steel cylinders and so forth And either the northeast draw of California or something because you're gonna need more lift if you have a problem Great point. Yep, absolutely And you know in terms of being minimalistic here. So another thing that you see in BC's and some people hate these and some people love them is If you have to carry an extra You know regulator which we all do right we're diving with buddies um Do you carry an octopus or are you cool with the air to or the air in a grade? And I think it's called air three depending on the brand where the Octop or whatever the extra regulator is embedded into the power inflator hose for your BC No problem because we pass we teach past the primary anyway because when you pass the primary That works in every gear configuration Right no matter what's going on I got a regulator in their face and it works in every gear configuration if they know to do that as well They don't have to worry about do I have an octopus or do I have an air to or air three So yeah, no problem if you have an air three. That's awesome your streamline. I love that We encourage that where we teach that C ventures I mean put that in your mouth. It's right there on the left and hand them your hand them your primary Those air threes breathe incredibly well by the way The really good regulators now in those things I will echo that point but with a little bit of a caveat I agree I was always taught past the primary I teach everybody past the primary because that works in every situation So that that's the right answer the only issue um, you know, I travel a lot um And it's not uncommon to see someone traveling abroad and obviously they have some sort of an issue And because they have an air to it becomes a lot more of a problem to You know fix that kind of a situation Uh, then it would be just to have an extra octo you know, you can get an octo from a rental gear Uh, I can throw it on your BC if you have a problem Um, I always have an extra little inflator piece off my regular BC So if something were to fail the something gets stuck their sand or whatever I can just pop one off and put another one on So I think in general Uh, an air to air three all those are great and you're you're exactly right there streamline You can pass the primary there's no problem But if you happen to be in some you know if you're in Indonesia and have an issue and you have an air to You may have more problems kind of getting through that problem than you would if you just had a simple BC inflator in an octo, but that'd be the only caveat I would say Absolutely, I'm on the same boat the only thing I would say is that if you're going to ditch Your octopus and you're going to just rely on your air to air three whatever plus your main regular your primary regulator then practice with it practice and get proficient on how you would pass You know your primary one because When you pass your primary now you have to survive on your air two or whatever you know that system is Which means that you need to know how to deflate from somewhere else or else I don't really are going to be cranking your face up or whatever like a dive instructor now you Well, you have to practice with it, you know because for me I switched to my air two, but immediately my left hand goes into my deflator on the on the right shoulder There's a little jump there's a dumb valve. Yeah So I can dump air as I'm coming up So you have to practice and know what to do if there's an emergency and you have to very rely on that Yeah All right, moving on and this is another one and this the pains on the agency and I think we should talk about agencies as part of this as well Is some agencies Allow you to be an independent instructor you don't have to be affiliated with any dive center You can be a contractor right an independent instructor some agencies require do solo dive in versus always yeah We're gonna get there um, but How do you guys feel about independent instructors versus Requiring them to be connected to a dive shop? well Who's up first me all right I think I think that the I always want to focus on the student first of all That's just my nature if somebody's going to pay me money to teach them something as it relates to scuba diving I'm automatically now Gonna give you Everything I can to make the experience on what's best for the student So with that said It is better to have a dive shop around me when I am teaching a student Because the resources the classroom facility the availability to have gear fixed the Availability to buy gear on the spot that they are Warantine that they have master technicians on that they can Possibly bring on a trip extra redundant gear and help them save a dive because we're you know using their kind of gear That's a better experience and also how about just the experience of camaraderie being associated with a dive shop It's kind of like being associated with a club How did I meet you guys? How did I meet David? How did I meet Doug? It was through sieventures So my relationship with that dive shop has also brought me some of my best friends and people I like to dive with And we have a common we've all lord in a common way We have basically the same philosophies the same gear we're diving the same kind of re-breathers And that comes from not being out there on my own this independent instructor So I I like the benefit of it For the student not the mandatory you can't do this on your own I want to have the support system for me and my students behind me So for that reason I like having the affiliation with a dive shop Yeah, I would I would echo that I think there's a couple reasons to be connected to a dive shop I'm gonna step out of that here in just a second But the reason to be connected to dive shop exactly what he said you've got a lot more support You've got the pool you've got the rental gear you've got Continuing education you got dive trips all that kind of stuff secondly one of the main reasons the agencies actually put in The requirement that includes raid and the SSI mainly To be affiliated with a dive shop is for quality control So if the instructors not doing a good job And they're affiliated with a dive shop the dive shop can no longer hire them And can let other dive shops know not the hire them theoretically if you're an independent instructor You're an independent instructor. There's no checks and balances on how you're doing now you'd like to think And I would I would imagine that the vast vast majority of instructors are fine instructors And are doing a very very good job But the one downside to independent instructors is the fact you don't have the checks and balances if you're a student Um, I agree with Woody all things being considered I would rather take a class from an instructor that's associated with a shop because a shop has a lot to offer However, if I had the option of diving with instructor A at a dive shop or Woody and Woody was an independent instructor I'm taking Woody every time Uh, because I think really it's all about I mean really it's all honestly. I think it's all the experience you get is really gonna be From the instructor So it's when you're getting instruction. It's all about the instructors not about the agencies not about the dive shop It's about the instructor have being affiliated with a particular dive shop can add to that experience But given the option of being associated with a particular shop versus being a associate with particular instructor I'm taking the instructor every time Absolutely, and I think again this goes with Defal it the whole you know competition between dive agencies because you do hear that out there where people say In general terms like oh if you're gonna do open water you should go through SDI and if you're gonna do rescue You should go through pad and if you're gonna do tech you should go through I anti whatever it is like they have their preference Depending on the course and what you're trying to do But I do feel that this is all about the instructor dive agencies don't matter That's why you know episode one of the show was all about dive agencies Yeah, and what competition you know that they have with each other that it doesn't make sense um You know one of the one of the the things that I also wanted to talk to you guys about was You know for for people that have and maybe we should have talked about when when we talked about spare air and all of that When it comes to solo diving, you know one of the rules of cave diving Doug that you taught me was never go solo cave diving But what about solo somewhere else at sea in a quarry at a lake How do you guys feel about solo diving versus try to dive with a buddy every time somebody else go first because my opinion is so strong That I don't want to come out of the gate with it. Okay. I'll know what your opinion. So I'll start Uh, I think In my opinion, I prefer diving with a buddy to be honest with you if that's at all possible But I will be also be perfectly up front and tell you that I frequently dive without one Depending on the situation because I'll often dive Especially someone's like what was pong over by myself and I would I would much rather have in my for me personally With my level of experience with my skill set with my equipment Um, I would rather I think it's safer for me to dive solo than potentially dive with a bad buddy Um, but that's me But I think you know a bad buddy is worse than nobody if you're if you're trained in a quit property So if we're talking recreational diving um, if you've been trained in a solo diver what they basically talked you about is redundancy So independent air source independent cutting devices in uh redundant or redundant cutting devices There are no air source redundant computer all those sorts of things is all redundancy redundancy redundancy So that in most situations you'd be able to get yourself out of the situation However, it's never a bad idea to have a buddy uh, if you're entangled if you have some sort of medical issue Whatever, it's always good to have a buddy So I think you have to kind of weigh the pros and cons solo diving comes up a lot of your instructor Um, because you have the person who's with you is You know a student whether be an open water student a tech student or cave students So really your your your your mind says that you're basically on your own if there's a problem Because you don't know if that person would help you adequately or not uh, so I think taking a solo diving course is good for everybody So that you understand the importance of redundancy But still dive with the buddy if at all possible I wouldn't dive cave diving I don't believe in cave diving out of buddy just because I think even all that redundancy There's still enough things that can happen enough problems that you show as a buddy with you But from a recreational standpoint, I'll admit that I've done it do solo frequently um I'm a photographer. I'd rather just go off by myself and get my photos and so forth But I only do that with complete redundancy and fully aware of the fact that I'm putting myself at increased risk That I would not have if I had a buddy with me Yeah, I mean I I agree with you. I don't dive solo frequently But I have no problem with it not in caves like you mentioned but Open water no problem and it's funny because we were a blue grotto You know a couple months ago and and what he was teaching a class there for a rebreaters And I was just there helping out and while he was going you know out of the water like on the table section or whatever With the students setting up and talking about the plan or whatever. I'm like I'm out I'm gonna go diving by myself Um, and would he was like okay. Yeah, no problem So I I learned a couple things and this is a blue grotto pro move here Exclusive a dive talk. I can do a bubble check by myself a blue grotto If I get close to the wall where the elephant statue is the one on the right hand side Because the sun shines in a way that it would reflect my bubble shit shadows on the wall So I can see if I if I have bubbles or not by myself Which is pretty cool. I learned this on that trip Um, but you know I have no problem diving a blue grotto and going deep by myself because I have that redundancy with a rebreather Whereas Woody would say like I would do that by myself Like I'm not gonna go all the way to the bottom, you know even alone Alone I wouldn't do it well I have to talk to the audience that I'm usually talking to and that is not you and it's not dug it's For most divers. I would recommend you don't dive alone for sure because there is way more Way more redundancy when you have another capable buddy with you and I think Doug's point is a very good one Capable buddy man. Do we have capable additional redundancy? I mean if we're if I'm diving with Doug in that cave I know he has my back I'm not I know he can save me and I will look him in the eyes and be like I got you too I know you're gear. I understand your system I'm physically and mentally capable of taking care of you So you've got all of everything I've got on me Doug available for you and I have everything you have available on you Absolutely, I'm just I don't ever tell people to solo dive because There are most divers are not capable of it. They don't really do the things we're saying They sound nice and theory, but they don't do it They're relatively new like they've been diving for a few years. That's relatively new to me. They don't really Go through the redundancy check. They're not properly trained in solo diving And once they have a problem because they never have before so they have no experience with the problem Okay, I have experience with the problem They don't and I can tell you whatever they think theoretically they're gonna do Until they have a real problem. They're not gonna do that. It's not gonna go how they think So in general my rules don't solo dive Not only that one more thing. I love sharing the experience. Do you know excited? I am to come back up on the boat and high five each other and Wow, that was awesome Look at these photos. We'd look at what we saw together where we talk about the dives for a month after we go That's part of the dive experience is to sharing the planning before we go as part of the dive experience Being on the boat as part of the dive experience Eating after the dive as part of the dive experience and I love that whole Comradery of diving. It's really a cool thing that we get to share together. Yeah, absolutely I Your point also about all the camaraderie Let's say you're on a live-a-board and you're doing five dives a day That's still five hours underwater. That's still 19 hours a day that you're not diving Yeah, right that's all camaraderie and talking about what you're gonna do and what you did do and shared experience And all that sort of thing so absolutely Yeah, and again the the ability for someone to help like imagine if you were at like beautiful sink We went beautiful spring your I mean that thing is out there like yeah, it's out there far And you're solo diving there and you have a problem That's gonna be tough and I remember the dive that we did where dog did the uh The safety brief with something like uh you see where we are right don't get bent Right that was and I remember someone added got each other Yeah, and someone added like and if you're gonna get bent don't be dug Right because he's the he's the only doctor in the in the team so right Not to work out for that is a good point god if you needed CPR, right? You got somebody else so yeah for sure Okay, so wrapping this up we're gonna wrap it up with some travel Stuff as well. I you know, I saw a discussion there Somebody was asking can I take weights on a plane and somebody immediately was like why would you take weights on a plane? But the reason was trim weights those one pound there so you can put in different places Almost never boats have a one pound or have a kilo or whatever Trim weight never so people travel with them and some people say you know what I'll just take the Two pound weight that most boats have and just deal with extra weight. How do you guys feel about Okay, I mean yeah, I like the little one pounders here and there but I'd almost always gonna not travel with them a full amount of playing I'm not I'll be honest. I'm not gonna bother but the reason I'm not gonna bother is I have enough trouble hitting the 50 pounds on two On the two suitcases Carry on in a 45 pound backpack with all the camera gear and and and two pounds of me is a huge deal So I wouldn't usually carry two one pound weights, but it's all the matter of what you want to do I mean if you've got if you're a minimalist you don't carry much weight and you say look I want to have it extra little one pound things. It's just two pounds away, you know if you only carry it That's fine. I got no problem with that Yeah, that's interesting. I said the same. I'm like, you know I just use the two the two pounders and I'll deal with the extra weight I guess not it's not gonna kill me to have a little bit of extra weight In there I did see a couple of people said, you know what I do is I have I travel with my pockets And I just feel them with sand or rocks and that's what I use for my train weights I'm like really you fill it up with rocks. I don't know it doesn't make sense Lastly, you know you guys are very very experienced divers You have thousands and thousands of dives why How do you feel about logging dives like there's it comes a point where he doesn't yes Now but he comes a point where he doesn't matter. You have seven dives. I log every dive. All right There I don't do it. I always matter because I don't know how to do your top body reasons I'll be honest with you. I stopped for a long period time I logged for probably five or ten years and stopped for ten years because I wasn't diving that much But when I got my kids back in a diving about 20 years ago or so or 20 something years ago I got back into it. I do it for a variety of reasons um From a practical standpoint if you're advancing your diving There are some courses that require prerequisites and the prerequisites are either numbers of dives or hours of dives Yep So that's one reason right up the bat. I've got I've got a documentation of what I've done Uh secondly I like it for memories because I like to kind of glance back through okay What about this trip to whatever you know Indonesia and oh yeah, I forgot about we saw this or we saw that so I have a little spot I don't I'm not real picky about it being a real complete log I usually have the number of the dive the date What what type of diving I was doing your recreational technical open circuits? Those sorts of things how much weight I used what what my wetsuit was Maybe who my buddy was and then just a little comment section of kind of what was cool about that particular diver What sucked about that particular dive so I liked it for memories to kind of glance back through and then lastly I like it for waiting I die I mean if you're just a guy that's always diving southward in a three mil wetsuit and eight pounds of weight That's fine, but you know I'm diving somewhere between it's fresh water. It's saltwater. It's three mil. It's five mil. It's a dry suit It's aluminum eighties. It's steel some things. It's Three bailouts. It's no bailouts. It's cameras. No camera. It's it's you know dry suit or wetsuit. It's DPV no DPV So all those things I've got a little chart to kind of helps me. They've got laminated But kind of seeing in a particular environment kind of what I was wearing and how much weight it took Especially if I haven't been in that particular gear configuration for months or a year So to kind of glance back go yeah the last time I was here. What was I wearing like as an example? I don't usually dive a dry suit For recreational diving in the ocean So the last time I went diving in San Diego open circuit. I was like well crap. I don't Remember in a dry suit with this steel 100 how much weight did I use last time for my dry suit Because I never do that so I look back and you know a few years before I've been there and I you found how much weight I use and that just kind of helped me So I think there's lots of things can be useful the main thing is just memories Yeah Memories the main thing like said waiting for different environments and like I said just you know prerequisites for certain courses Sometimes it can be helpful. I think it's a great idea So I I agree with everything Doug said Um two other quick points one when it comes to waiting I keep a separate Note in my ever notes just called dive waiting So it's not even it's a separate for my log every gear configuration or what type of water I was in I wrote down the weight and where the weight was like was it a four on one side of three on the other And the tank size and everything because that changes by the way that can change based on not just the environment But you as a as a person and then I also log for every single reason Doug said Plus lead by example I am an instructor. I'm an instructor trainer for SSI in my case strongly believe in logging and in fact if you don't log the dive as a diver taking a class And then have it verified electronically by somebody else an instructor or a dive shop You don't even get credit you can't process their certification. Yep So I got to lead by example as well on that. Yep. No for sure And I log him too. I was just playing devil's advocate Of course, but I started the the separate log for cave more than anything because there's a lot of Classes that require like Doug said number of dives or number of hours Try mix will require us to do multiple 25 dives to over 130 or 40 meters Um, yeah, uh the the dpv class is 25 cave dives outside of the tank training dives the Class the kccr class was a hundred hours on a on a rebreather before you can go for for cave or a hundred dives not a hundred hours a hundred dives so it having all that information you know Kind of allows you to see where you are at any given point and again the out for sure the memories Are really cool. I like the SSI log Specifically for a variety of reasons. I like to see all those pins all over the world everywhere That's cool and by the way they just added a couple of features Would you have to show you on the SSI log now you can copy dives and stuff like that clone them and stuff. It's pretty cool But anyway Yeah, log your dives regardless of where you are in your dive career All right guys, well that was 20 20 myths or you know not myths, but uh highly contested Topics in the in the dive community. Thank you so much dog for joining us I know it was a pretty long episode, but you know you had a lot of insight We have to do an episode about photography by the way I feel like because I all I have is I just have this zony you know zony Parallel camera shot for tarot. Yeah, parallel and so we both have the easiest Thing like hit a button and take a picture and don't control anything type of cameras and tell me that As a photographer. I don't want to hear um yeah I I I rarely have a camera and when I do I have the the easiest thing But you have you know an amazing setup. So I want to I want to talk for you know for for me for my own sake I want to learn more about it But also for people listening to the show. I think they want to learn about it too I think that we do a kind of a primer on underwater photography. Absolutely Absolutely. Thank you so much dog for tuning in and thank you woody as well We'll see you guys in two weeks And yeah, I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you everybody. Thanks everybody