title: Episode 26: CAVE DIVING
author: DIVE TALK
contenttype: podcast
publication: DIVE TALK
published: 2021-01-08T12:00:00-05:00
sourceurl: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/divetalk/Cave_Diving.mp3?dest-id=1756346
word_count: 11126
Welcome everyone and happy new year this special episode of dive talk a special for a variety of reasons by the way Number one. It's our one year anniversary. No way high five. I'm loud. That's right 26 episodes so this is an episode number yeah this close barely one year episode number 26 and the first one we record on the go on On a travel so there's a lot of first I can't wait to tell them what my eyeballs are looking at right now besides the two good looking guys that are amazing Kiss cave divers across from me What are we looking at right now? Should I tell them are you well? Where in Mexico? We're in costum out. Yeah, well, they already knew because you spill the beans on the on the last episode They knew we're gonna be here. Yeah, but Today's episode is special because we have Doug back on the show Doug say hi That's Doug ever saw you guys yeah and for the first time Brian Welcome to the show hey guys always good to see you too high springs Florida move They are just for cave diving. That's right and I will have to give him a special thanks for very much helping me configure my side Winder Rebrea there which he is very proficient at diving in caves and that'll lead into a lot of the Conversation today because we're gonna talk about kiss. We're gonna talk about diving. We're gonna talk about cave diving That's right and protocols and all that kind of stuff Yeah, I mean if he gets a little bit noisy by the way I just wanted to mention that is because we're recording you know from the resort essentially So we don't know what's gonna happen But it is true today's episode is about cave diving We've been meaning to talk about this for a while, but I wanted to I was kind of waiting for this trip because I knew that we're gonna be World class cave divers here and I wanted to have a variety of stories and opinions and plus We were gonna do some cave diving in Mexico too, and I wanted to see how that was because I had never done it I know that some of you guys have done that before And that was K-diving right it was interesting because these two guys it's cave diving I call a cave It was it was entertaining It's interesting come had an ish to the cave was entertaining. We'll talk about that We will talk about that, but before we get before we get started Brian since your first time on the show Can you talk about you know, what is it that you do when do you start diving and especially cave diving? I started actually diving before the turn of the century so 1999 and it got my start So I've been about 21 years and been cave diving for 16 years and It's been a real passion for my wife Vicki and myself to go cave diving and in fact It was there's been so much of a passion. We decided to move to high springs Florida to be in cave country Cave diving capital the world from Southern California from Southern California Yeah, so we tell our listeners a lot of them don't know seriously. Where is high springs and why is it the cave capital of the world I know we know things that you think everybody knows But I never even heard of it till I started cave diving and you were born and raised in Florida Born I thought for Florida on Brad County was Florida and I realized it's slightly different than high springs I had to Big drive him to the real parts of Florida to show him what real Florida looked like he had no clue Well, I got to introduce me to cave diving and I'm like wow. This is Florida. Do you know seriously? Yeah, how is that the cave? High springs is actually that's where high tech meets redneck So that's One of the best things about the area. We're right outside of Gainesville So University of Florida is located there and so we have all the amenities associated with small city and yet high springs is a town of about six thousand people and it has a number of springs in the area Florida is known to have over 900 springs of fresh wild springs I know that's also it's like a spaghetti or there and why don't we always dive the same three And and when I say you know it doesn't it's the the world capital of cave diving Sure, there's going to be some people from Mexico that'll be ringing our bell saying hey, no, it's us because in the yucatan obviously it's But I'm more interested in yes, it has a lot of caves But I think what's so amazing that people may not realize is how many of our cave procedures and gear We're sort of invented right there Isn't that true a lot of the cave procedures that we use now and even the cave gear and the lights and the facts that we use line and real Wasn't a lot of the guys living right there that Absolutely, yeah, not doing it right and then surviving and surviving and coming up with protocols to make it safer Starting with you know check x-lay. It's probably the most well-known for that and you know Blue print for survival exactly. So this is really cave country listeners that aren't familiar with cave diving These guys literally invented the procedures and they are very strict Incredibly well-thought-out protocols all Developed right there in high springs flora. We're you're living now and that's incredible and some of those guys are still there by the way And Brian had mentioned the blueprint for survival which is kind of the handbook of of cave diving and what happened was back in the 60s, I'm assuming probably 60s and 70s 70s When cave diving kind of started there was a lot of deaths And the cave divers at the time kind of got together and said hey the government's gonna shut us down if this keeps happening So check x-lay who is a math teacher as I've kind of an analytic guy took and Evaluated all of the cave fatalities that he could find Uh and look for common denominators and that's where they came up with the five rules of cave diving So that brings up a question I was saving for the show I didn't want to tell you guys I was gonna ask it But I've been wanting to ask you guys For cave divers That follow these five rules of cave diving do you think cave diving is safe or are we all crazy for cave diving because that's the big elephant in the room every time I say I'm a cave diver. Oh, you're crazy I'm fine. It's it's in guts. I talk about this. It's so deadly But what if you're trained and you follow these rules? What do you guys think is it safe? Well, I would say compared to what I would say in general as an activity that's Something that we enjoy doing if we follow these rules are these rules such that it is Is relatively safe if you're following the protocols of cave diving and maybe you want to describe what those five rules are If you want to add clarification that because I want our listeners to understand that I think we're not going into caves And never been in a before and we're just swimming around and hoping to find our way out I think it's like lots of activities what you're trying to do is mitigate the risk right so it's like saying is rock climbing dangerous is hang gliding dangerous Sky guys sure sky diving. They're all more dangerous than us sitting here by the pool and cosmo But the question is how can you mitigate that risk um the five rules of cave diving do a very good job of mitigating risk They don't eliminate risk by any stress imagination But up until a few years ago when people have been really really pushing things I mean, I think there had only been you know a single death Where someone didn't break one of those five rules that's changed now that's amazing So I mean there within you know within the first decade or two of cave diving to things with re-breathing and really pushing long distances There had only been You know, I was very very very small number of people who died They're not broken one of those rules so if you follow those five rules it should be at a I wouldn't say it no risk, but it should be an acceptable risk for most people's risk tolerance that are scuba divers But that's incredibly important right if that they've always been able to point back to one of those five rules unless you have a medical issue Okay, that can happen anywhere. Yeah, yeah But the difference being of course if you have a medical issue in the open water You potentially can go to the surface if you have a medical issue playing golf you can stop playing golf Uh, and also if you dropped it on the 17th fairway they don't consider that a golfing death If you have the same event in 60 feet of water, it's scuba diving death if you have an a cave It's clearly going to be defined as a cave diving death So there's there's the health issues and the medical side of things as well But in general, I think if you are able to follow those rules You should be able to mitigate most of the issues. Okay. We got to ask We got to talk about what are the five rules of cave diving Because I want to listen to I know I'm in my head, but you have an acronym for I can't catch them on the air Two girls all day long. Okay, yeah I didn't make that up. I was told book or I said it was I would know I that's not my acronym By the way, Woody and dive talk I Girls all day long that's that's what I was told as bad, but that's what I remember it's which is training She is training so the training It's just talk about each one because it's going to lead in the conversation I have been diving myself for a very long time 56 years old I started diving at 11 I have never seen training like cave dive training It's almost like an entire separate realm of training above all other training That I've ever done. How was your training experience Brian and cave diving versus all the other training you've done Cave diving would definitely set the bar I think both my wife and I had become dive masters and it's like oh It's really hard to become a dive master and pass a dive master course And then we went cave diving and it's like oh, yeah, that was a walk in the park that was nothing And I tell joke yes compare to cave diving. I mean we in the training we force ourselves to Do everything we can to possibly simulate ways to die All the wrong things to do inside of a cave lose the line Lose your lights because by the way everybody who isn't familiar with cave diving the definition of a cave is when you get into the zone where there's no light and I mean Zero light right so we simulate all these things how to get your buddy out how to tow your buddy Gas planning, you know, etc. etc. So The training is is is significant. Okay, what's the next one because I just touched on it This is a biggie the the G What's the G in the five up? We got some side conversation going on over here. Hold on. Are you guys all right over there? guideline guideline Doug are you are you are you able to talk about the guideline? Are you going to do something quickly? Gus has asked me do some quickly which hopefully will be a special guest. Yes, Jerry's the prize guest Okay, we may have a surprise guest Okay Well, guideline is the second rule of cave diving. What are we talking about? Well, it's simply we always have a line to The outside essentially to wear out. We never go into the cave without a guideline or a guide or a line Basically, and we're always able to follow that line all the way to the exit now in general Brian these guidelines are in Florida How are they maintained because if we cannot ever die without a line? What if I'm swimming through and the line is broken What's going on in Florida to make sure those lines are good and what kind of line is it? I mean is it like there's different agencies Different agencies and different groups of people actually monitor the lines within the caves and Reposition them if they need to be repositioned or replace them when they need to be replaced mark them appropriately You know, they're marked many of the caves in Florida are What you might call the tourist caves With line arrows pointing the way out every hundred feet And I think that's one of the things to consider is are we used to diving tourist caves which I've done Most of my cave diving life is just a tourist cave so I consider myself a tourist the tourist the tourist caves are caves That are already mapped out already have lines etc Right that's what we're talking about and then you just have to run a line from the From the outside of the cave Right through the cavern zone to the main line so we're not just covering you cave. We're not that kind of cave diver not in not in the tourist Cave so we're tourists would you say we're for the most part we Not the special guests that's coming but the four of us are tourist cave divers. I would say the three of us are I wouldn't speak for Brian Okay You may not be so what so okay, so tell us what you do when you're not doing recreational Taurus cave diving and what's that difference because that was too easy for Brian I have an explore exploring leads looking for different places to go that don't have line and Surveying and mapping, but you're still on a line You're just so what are you doing? Well like the one we did a couple days ago. Yeah, you were on a line But you weren't sure which line was the line we were supposed to be on was it the piece of twine that was run out and Laying all over the floor through the mud that crisscrossed the one that was actually tied to things and it broke and it broke Or you know was it something that is actually placed in there specifically marking distance Brian may do is take some place to say like as an example Jenny But there's places of Jenny that haven't been completely explored really you could tie off a place and say No one's gone in this general area. So I'm gonna go see if I can find another Another find another lead find another lead and push it and then come back to the regular tourist cave or whatever You can just say something in little river you can just say anything and peacock and you know equals and ask whatever So but if you're on a line that doesn't seem that much more dangerous. What's the what's the increased risk there? If you're exploring new cave You you tied off onto a line so you can just reel yourself back to the main line, but what About that is so dangerous. Why don't we all want to go do that? Well, you don't know You're going somewhere potentially where no one has been so you don't know what the risk of Collapses you don't know what the risk is of getting through and a restriction and being unable to get back through the other side of the restriction Based on how it's designed You know if you've got like a lobster trap or a crab trap type design so you can go easily one direction But not so easily on the way out that's concerning So all those carry with them all to increase risks a huge amount of additional rest and lots of some breeze and no one's been there before is because they're very small And very tight and people have gotten to that specific spot and said I'm not willing to go any farther All right, so this is the the perfect moment that question is the perfect moment to introduce our special guest for the show Mike young Welcome to the show. Thank you Now why why are you special Mike? Why are you here Why are you special? It's not special for many reasons. Yeah, why why are you here? I For me like it's even hard to answer because there's so many sites to this obviously you are the owner of kiss re-breather's which we all dive We've all been diving for a week now in costume male, but also like I know we became Facebook friends like within the last year or whatever When I got my re-breather, but I just keep seeing these memories popping up from you being like the craziest caves like years and years and years ago And I'm like how why are you doing this? So talk a little bit about yourself So that's all that sort of thing. Oh that and then we're gonna get into even more specific questions Well I've been cave diving now for probably a little over 20 years and back when I got started They they had a pretty good education system going and the training system But I was not real privileged to that because I live in the Midwest and there's not a lot of cave diving there so After my initial training Most of the rest of it we had to learn on our own and we had a little group of people that did that The problem was we didn't have a lot of caves so we had to go find them and so We learned how to explore caves because that was all we had available So so you okay, yeah So so you were you were doing cave exploration to learn how to cave dive I went through the basics of cave diving with an instructor okay, but to gain the experience We started exploring caves so rather than so finishing your training. Let's say it you know Ginny Springs peacock little river rather than Kind of cutting your teeth by going back to those places that have been well mapped and gaining experience You initially just said okay, I've got my cave training now. I'm gonna gain my experience by exploring brand new cave basically yes and That is and so most of the caves that we had available to us were small muddy nasty But that's all we had so guess what you know, that's what we dove okay But but we were very progressive about it. We would we would we would go in and explore to our comfort level We would come back out and we would you know The next time we would go in and we would go a little further and we'd see what's there and come back out. I mean some of the caves You know new exploration might have only been like 50 feet You know, we put line you know an extra 50 feet and it was okay. Okay. We got another problem. We come back out We'll talk about it solve it Go go try by the way We always doing that on re breather right from the beginning No from in the beginning. I was doing open circuit. Okay, but then you got how to get introduced to re-breathers and then what happened from there? I You know, I was reading I was reading about re-breathers We didn't have the internet back then like we do now, but like advanced diver magazine a few of them had had stuff on re-breathers and I really liked the concept of a re-breather But I still couldn't get over the don't take any gas below its m-o-d And so putting a hundred percent oxygen on you and being able to inject it at 300 feet sound ludicrous to me So I thought there's got to be a better way to design one right so I built my own re-breathers and we did that for about eight to ten years and then Some people found out about the re-breathers we were using and wanted to market them for us And that's when I joined The kiss team and started and I sold them that patent and started that was original gym mouthpiece, right? Yeah, yeah, that was the gym and is that why because you talked about the injection of O2 Is that why you've always believed in just a mechanical re-breather and not relying on a computer to inject that oxygen? Yes, you know the the simpler that you can keep it Theoretically the safer it'll be yeah, you know, okay, so so our original re-breathers were a semi closed re-breath And it was basically a gas extender and so you would plug in your trimix or your Nitrox or whatever makes you would use open circuit at that depth You would plug that in and breathe that it just would make it last ten times longer Okay, two quick questions one is when you find this new cave that you went and explored have to be in a new cave diver What do you do with that information? How? Is that beneficial? What's the purpose of it? Well early on We would go in and map it and survey it and we would give that information to our local grotto Which is a group of dive? drivers and they filed it in in their local reports and and and So you took a compass and you would count the feet and say that was this many feet in this direction Well, it depends on how Complicated of a survey they want. I mean there's different grades of survey You can have just a simple line plot or you can keep expanding it You know and you can go all the way up to like a grade five survey, which is like almost drawing every rock You know on the map It depends on what the what the people would like to get out of it Sometimes the landowners would say hey, we want we want you to dive our cave here But we want to see where it's going where where it's coming from You know and so we would do simple line plots, you know Uh, if the grotto brought us in to to dive a A sump which is where you're in a dry cave for a while and then it filled then it comes to water And you dive through the water and come back to dry cave again They want really good survey because they want really accurate maps And they want to try to find another way You know to continue the cave And so they they would like to have better maps and so it all depended on who we were doing it for And then later on when I started getting invited on expeditions and things We had to go along with the parameters that they wanted, you know, so Okay, so that's a whole nother skill in itself is surveying, but you did But you did discover rebreavers which brings up the third rule of cave diving That's what we're doing by the way the conversation of this show is flowing through the five rules of cave diving The third one is there's a okay There's a the third one is a we've done that we've done training and guidelines are up to air But here so okay, you're on a rebrea there You've got all the I mean how do we Plan why is there still a very significant rule related to air? I could tell you well. I have five hours worth of scrubber life So I should be able to go two and a half hours. Yeah, even even with air come into play even with rebreavers as reliable as they are You you have to figure that any piece of equipment you have on is going to fail you at any given time no matter what even your open circuit equipment so So you have to plan for that contingency So if you rebreavers fails you at the farthest point of your penetration you have to have enough resources to get out You have to have more than enough because what if one of your first stages fails you also so That that that brings up the whole conversation that we started with these rules really do mitigate the activity of cave diving in terms of a risk significantly and I'm wanting our listeners to hear because I think there's a big myth out there We were talking about this at the beginning of the show Gus and I talk about it every time A lot to each other that if you say on my cave diver most people immediately say you're out of your mind You're crazy, but there's a big lack of knowledge of what really using proper protocol does to make it There's a risk, but it certainly has been mitigated because what you just said was huge We take enough air as if we lost air at the absolute worst possible part in our planning right so follow that plan And that's a pretty big mitigator and most all of the tragedies and fatalities that have happened occurred because somebody did something wrong That's what we discussed that before that was almost always has been someone's brother's father's is very very critical but a medical issue or or it's the one cave collapse that happened 40 years ago Well, and and it's funny that you mentioned that people when you talk that when you tell people you're a cave diver You know they say well that's crazy it's suicidal is so dangerous But then there's the other side of it who are the dive pros that are not cave divers that say But I'm an instructor I'm a dive master And that gets a lot of them killed correct there are a lot of fatalities of people thinking that they Are trained well enough in their environment that they can go into another environment and they're not And that's that's why it's on the NSS CDS signs even instructors have died in caves just like this Yeah, well and even in your cave training there's there are enormous different environments And if your training is Typically say Jenny Springs that's that's a specific environment And that does not necessarily qualify you to Come out to one of these cenotes that are just really nasty and you can't see anything for the first four or five hundred feet And then and then you get into the good cave, you know So completely different environment that Unless you're trained for that environment you should even avoid that just like the open water divers So I say you know when you finish open water class you are now trained you know sort of like to dive in the environment you were trained in exactly if you train in the Caribbean for your open water class You probably shouldn't go dive fell uh ice diving ice diving or you shouldn't or you shouldn't go dive and really really Generalible cold water poor visibility swift currents because that's not what your experience It's the same thing in cave diving you don't want to start in a nice crystal clear place and then move to something really really nasty Though that's exactly how you did your cave diving. Yeah, but that was out of necessity, but do as I say Well, we're not Mike Okay, so that's the first three As if that's not enough the next one is d depth And that one really applies to any type of dive right that originally though came about because at the time cave diving started All we had was air there wasn't nitrox So that was a And Narcosis issue you didn't want to be in a cave environment where obviously uh Being oriented being task loaded and knowing kind of where you were Uh is very important and have Narcosis on top of that could be a real problem. That's where that originally came from So but it's still applies but it's still applies it does I mean there's there's people to do things they shouldn't do and and you know when you're narked out You're not gonna make good choices You know, it's interesting too. I think when I first started cave diving Judging depth was very difficult because all the walls are around you Right and you're thinking oh my gosh, you know this it can't be more than 10 feet deep right and you look at your gauge And you're like oh crap. I'm at a hundred feet But yet these walls are just all around me so Watching your depth is critical. I was I'm not kidding you I was just about to say what he was saying it. I remember that for myself Right, I'm a relatively new cave diver. I've got like 44. I think um That outside of training by the way. I love it and I'm highly addicted But I remember going like I feel like I'm not like they're 20 or 30 feet the whole time because For those that are having cave dive you're you're surrounded in like a tunnel the whole time So it's very hard to tell that you're going down you really got to monitor Your instruments and computers. Well, yeah, the other issue also to that point is If you're cave diving you don't have the option of going shallower if the cave goes deeper You either go deeper or you turn around and people have to have the You know the training and understanding that if you're if you're good at 130 You're not good at 200 and you're going along the cave drops you need to turn around because going shallower through that section Isn't an option unless you've got a jackhammer with you And you may not be able to turn around and you can't do that that's cave conservation But but that's a good point you may not be able to turn around at any particular point that you want I mean there have been sections where I know I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to turn around You maybe you have to go back a little or somehow get pushed back a little so yeah, okay L lights It's cave black I never forget when they told me when you go in it's the weirdest kind of darkness Your eyeballs are wide open. It's so dark I remember I actually said no I think I am seeing like something They're like no those are like imprints in your brain woody and I have weird brain anyway, but but So weird it's such a distortion. It is interesting because I mean people ask and I say it's 0.0 How much light is there 0.0? There's none It is black and your eyes if you keep them open they are in fact searching for light Right and so they talk about people going crazy in a 0.0 light environment Because your your brain is trying to receive these messages that just aren't coming through so Yeah, and there's not many times in our life where we're really in zero light I mean certainly shutting your eyes isn't isn't the case Right so the actual rule for the lights like you mentioned yes That's the minimum of three lights. Yeah, and the rationale being for anybody who's been some of the Florida caverns You know the idea is to do or night diving for that matter is to have a primary in a backup Okay, because you go to the surface of your night diving to the moon or if you're in a cavern You've got the sun and that's your third light if you're in a cave You have no third light so you have your primary light and a minimum of two backups in case something fails Okay, and lights are a lot more reliable than they were 20 years ago when Mike was started there when Brian started cave diving and so forth There are much more reliable now, but still that rule applies I actually like to take four because then you still have a three you don't have to end your dive because I guess if you have a three and you lose one You really should turn the dive I don't want to turn it depending on the light you're taking Are you taking two primaries and two backups? Yeah, so then that would make sense um I do think that the whole three lights thing, you know, we take four, but I do think that also applies to things like dropping it off And I think that's why in training we cover that if you drop it like turn it on before you take it off your D ring So if it falls you can find it have a chance because some of them have like whatever many inches thick You know think the the silt and if it goes in there You probably won't see it even on but the fact that you learn all of that during training and that's why the class is so long It's like eight days long right compared to a open water class that you can knock out in three days eight very intense days okay, so I know Everybody out there is a lot of people out there are saying well why then do you guys love cave diving so much So let's just one time go around the room yeah, I want to hear this okay I think I have a different reason that everyone you guys answer. I'll go last Why won't you let me go last okay, Mike you go last you may have the you may have the best stories Brian you moved you moved your life to high spring Florida And a lot of it if not all of it had to do with the fact that you could be right next to the case Why do you love cave diving so much? I think we like just Finding out what's around the next corner It's uh, it's why why do you take a Sunday drive right? You go and you look and see what's around the next corner and that's just part of exploration I think Is how can we find something new to us or something unique And It's sometimes difficult, you know, you're going along and everything's going well and you're thinking hey, this is good Oh, I see we've reached our turn our plan to turn time Right we're 50 minutes in and we know we gotta come out we got some deco obligation What well no, we can't we have to have the discipline to say Let's plan to go around the next corner next time And you know, I just want to add how incredible caves are to hone your skills as a diver like they take you to a high level That's that can my answer What I was gonna say is I was gonna say that but I knew Gus was gonna Two of our answer. No, what I was gonna say is that it's unbelievable how Perfect Bryant is in the case. It's like a submarine like you can it's just perfection trim up down just perfect right? When I'm like banging into the which is kind of funny Hmm, and Mike was scooting underneath all of us to turn on and get photos and no one even knew he was there That was very impressive. He's like this. Yeah. I mean, there's not that much room. And I'm something along and I said Mike is Below me. He's still coming around and coming and getting photos. He's still under there. I watch my comeback There is he's now in this trip just a funny story about Mike We were we were diving and Mike goes into this hole that I knew there's no exit like I there's just no chance He goes into this hole and I'm swimming by him and I'm like, oh, that was it was nice diving with Mike He is dead of back there and then he at the same time as I'm passing by him. He starts backing out doing the back You know the kick kick and he was faster than me going forward. I have never seen anyone go backwards a lot Just out of there like a rock it. I'm just going to the way Mike Explorer just spent a lot of time backing up So Doug I used to all Doug by the way trained me all up through rebreather diving He's one of my dive mentors on he would constantly hear me say no, you know, I just love the pretty fish in the ocean or whatever And now every time I text him it's when are we going cave diving again? Well Why do you love it so much? I was kind of in the same boat. I started recreational diving in 1974 and and Basically, I'd always sworn that was never going to cave dive and I had no interest and what actually up with me is I started doing a lot of training of Rebreather divers and a lot of people were cave certified that were crossing over to rebreathers and What what amazed me was what you just mentioned those the cave divers who were crossing over to dive now rebreathers were some of the most Technically the best divers I'd ever seen So I wanted to get I got into cave diving really just to hone skills And then once I started doing that I started getting an appreciation just for For me a lot of the technical aspect of it of completing it well Not stirring things up jumps correctly all that sort of thing from a technical standpoint And then I started seeing some pictures of places that you and I've been to and my next goal was to get To the level of Rebreather cave diving that Mike would be willing to take me to the Bahamas ago cave dive with him and Brian cake hook So that was my next goal so that that happened a few years ago. So that was that was kind of how my story goes Oh, that's me I go you're up. There's your second answer Gus. Well, the no My first I think I think it's gonna be different than everyone I you know when I was when I was learning how to fly planes um One of the things that I never felt was that thing that it's like oh you feel free that you're in the air like a bird and flattened No, I never felt that I always felt like I was operating a machine that is flying and I Enjoy that I enjoy the fact that I'm operating this thing and making it fly level or up or down or however I want by operating it and I think when I'm diving in caves I feel the same way. I enjoy the fact that I have these two massive tanks and all these other gear essentially That I have to manage and use in order to dive safely through the cave I don't really find the caves pretty I like I don't go in and I'm like you've been the right caves Yeah, I haven't been to the right cave. Yeah, they are right, but you need a new mask Like I don't I don't go into little river or peacock or whatever I'm gonna be like oh my god how beautiful like they're cool But it's not a beauty thing and maybe I need to go to the avocados and you know see the crystal caves But the caves that we dive or that I've dove in it there's just rock like there's nothing beautiful about them But the skills and the the the fact that I'm operating all of this gear in order to make it happen safely is what attracts me to cave diving So you would never fly your plane over the Grand Canyon I mean that sounds cool. Yeah But because I look at a lot of caves and I look you know Hey, this is this is like going to Bryce Canyon or someplace like that and just all the geology and all the formations and things like that That you just you would never see if you didn't take up this hobby. Yeah, I know I I'm not saying they're not pretty All I'm saying is that's not why I cave dive is not because I go in there and be marveled at those rocks No, I'm not I actually think I'm a funny man And I told you that I think it's hilarious if somebody went at peacock and at put one of those scientists free hugs on the tunnel to water hole Just like that's it's that's it's stuff that I think about what I'm cave diving is like oh my god That tunnel looks so creepy somebody should put a scientist free hugs Maybe think more about trim Exactly Think more about skills good. Well All right, I'm a licensed pilot as well And I do get that feeling of flying like a bird and let me tell you when I'm the reason I love cave diving is that I feel so privileged That I actually learned these incredibly hard it was not easy for me my instructor was Brian kick-hook And I got to tell you when I first started the first day. I think he was like I don't know dude you I'm like I'm diving like I'm in the ocean and now I got to see some of the most beautiful things my eyeballs have ever seen No exaggeration. I mean I cried Even the Florida caves to me I was there he did cry when I got to thank more force I cried am I mask he pointed to sign he like High five me like I you earned the right to be here and then when my eyes saw what I was looking at For me it was spiritual I believed at that moment. I was seeing something that it whatever your higher power is only wants Only will allow a few very very privileged people to see because we have the respect For that creation. This is not a religious show, but I get that feeling when I'm in Little River when I'm in peacock When I'm in Jenny. I mean I was born and raised in Florida that whole state is an Spaghetti under there of where I was living. It's incredibly beautiful Some of those formations and openings when you're coming into peacock or the keyhole I mean I just stopped sometimes and I'm like this is I can't really describe it to non-caved divers my words never do it justice I only can share that with the other privilege group that has seen it and it's a special bond we have It is you know when you are with other cave divers. It feels like a very close bond Because we've seen things that are Could be viewed as the most magnificent part of the world And for some reason we were the privileged ones that were trained and allowed to be able to see that so That's why I just I'm I can't wait to get back under there You know you brought up the spiritual part of it and that was one thing that my wife and I talk about all the time is that It's hard to not be in the moment when you're in the cave and you think about You know so presence and being present and meditation and things of that nature and you know so many times in life We're thinking about what happened yesterday or what's happening tomorrow or what's happening a month from now And for us when we're in a cave. It's now this moment Exactly right Totally agree with it totally agree with that. Yeah, it's your mic. All right. Why do you love cave diving? Well, it's it's a combination of things um Like like Gus said, it's a control thing and and actually at one of the NSS conventions they they did a little survey and um Out of out of all the people in the room they were saying okay Have you ever gone skydiving because cave diving is dangerous and skydiving is dangerous And it's an adrenaline thing, you know almost nobody had been skydiving But they ask how many people here are pilots and over 50% of the people said they were You know raise their hand and pilots and so it's the same kind of thing pilots. It's a mindset and and and and pilots, you know They like to follow their checklist. They like to be in control of the situation Nothing's gonna go wrong as long as we do everything we're supposed to do exactly the way we're supposed to do it And then when you do that the sense of achievement is is you know, but Like what he said also, you know, I mean, I was in Notre Dame Cathedral one time and you're sitting there with all of this history And and and the atmosphere the the reverence For this place being a a spiritual spiritual place, you know And you get that when you're in a cave too you you the history is there I mean, it's it's older than time. I mean these caves have been there for so long You know some of these stalactites are 50 60 feet long and it's like, you know 10,000 years per inch you're like That's unbelievable, you know and so and and and and and and and then For me it's it's that It's the aspect that I will get to see things that nobody has seen before. Yeah, I mean nobody And then there's things that I've seen that nobody will see besides me You know, there's places that nobody will go back, you know And so and isn't amazing that all that beauty that you're talking about right now right now It's just back sitting there in utter total darkness and when we go by it we're so in the moment We think we're such a big part of it's Oh, no, no, and we're just a little Oh, no, we're that drifted by We are so blessed to just pass through pass through you know nothing's back Yeah, you know, it's funny that you mentioned that there are places that you've been that no one no one will be there again Because that's how I feel about that Mexican cave that we went to at least In one of the tunnels that we went because the line snapped and Immediately like we just looked at it. I think I think I think I snapped it with a flashlight like I shun the flashlight on it and broke and And the line just went into like this tunnel and like I'm glad we were the first team in because Whoever would have been on that tunnel would we would be searching for them still That's why you repair the line. That's why you repair the line and you learned that on the cave except nowhere we did But um, it is interesting. I wanted you guys to talk about as we wrap up the show I wanted to close it with funny stories and I think that the the cave dive here in Mexico was was kind of funny in that regard Which is for me for example with 25 whatever cave dives all in Florida pretty much Coming here and seeing the differences like you mentioned it was a piece of twine Instead of this thick, you know, gold line that we have in Florida I want you guys to talk about what you thought about it as we were First thing we did first we need to make sure it's good for your listeners is we weren't talking about the cenotes Over on the mainland no because that is different that's freshwater Lines good visibility. This was a sea cave Uh here in Cosmil so that's got a whole bunch of different issues to it So you've got all the growth on the line So it's encrusted making harder to see. It's got no issues It makes it it makes the line weaker You've got tidal issues because things can siphon base can hide tight low tide and hydrogen sulfide It eats the line and then I just I'll eat the line and you've got halic lines and the halic line Just happens to be right where the line happens to be that's covered with stuff and buried in the sand so you can't see squat And there's not a line committee like there is in florist There's not many people who are monitoring the lines and there's the lines don't have a permanent gold line They don't have directional arrows They don't have jumps they just have a bunch of teas so the the navigation part of things is is challenging It requires good training going back to Mike's point which is that as you noticed Having done all of your cave diving in florida does not necessarily prepare you to do a silty nasty Sea cave in Cosmil but but I think we should put it in perspective It's important we do this because I don't want our listeners to think that we're like cowboys And doing stuff that are not That we shouldn't be we were with a guide that was very familiar with that cave I would not go into that cave like Doug if it was just you and I we came here No, you and I are not going to go into that cave by ourselves because we heard about it right We were guided through that cave and Mike was there as well. This is extreme experience That guided us through this type of cave but Even we've been guided you need to make sure you get all of your protocols in place and of course But I'm just saying that was an added that's the kind of cave divers that I would say we are Maybe not so much Brian and Mike, but certainly I'll speak for myself I would not have gone in there if it wasn't for the experience level of Mike and you know Jose and so forth Yep for sure But it was it was an interesting experience Especially the holocline like I was I was hoping that that was like a I don't know like a couple inch later And then I would be able to see again, but as soon as you go into that is zero this is like a blur What is going on and then after you stir your feet around and stir it up for the second and third person then A bigger blur for that person the team as I was yeah There's no zero. Yeah, there's no there's no defined holocline at that's like swimming through a bottle of triple sec The the the place where we turn around it was I was second in the team and you know our guide went in and I had zero Vis already like going in I was second and I had zero vis because it was this Tie tunnel then no matter how you kick the silt was just gonna go and at that point I'm like I if you guys want to go because I knew going in and I learned my lesson going to woody's room You know if going in you have zero vis and I'm the second one Coming out is gonna be we should actually define zero vis Right you guys had good vis you dad good Yeah, that's not zero I can make it worse Well, you could see your gauges Yeah, you knew you had a light on maybe my nerd yes Somewhat to our gauges, but I do think the theme of this show I really hope our listeners walk away Understanding that we're cave divers, but we follow Strictor protocols in any other form of diving that I've ever done Ever it's not even and we never violate any of those protocols like so as Doug you worded it perfectly we're There's risks there's risks in everything, but we really Go a very long way to try to mitigate those risks as much as possible Exactly and even even on the level of white who's you know obviously will claim World class cave explorer is still following all those rules all the time So yes, what he's doing is more dangerous than recreational kind of cave diving but the same time he's more meticulous That anybody as far as as so as a safety protocols because he's got a wife and family He wants to come home to him just like everybody else does that a crazy wild wild west thing is what I'm saying No, but I thought we were telling funny stories and since we're gonna do that. Okay, here we go Yes, sir, let me tell the funny story so Our group went in a different entrance than you guys did so when we were coming out I saw your lights over at the other one so I swam around there to meet you And I saw this huge lobster and he was backing his way into the cave casually Not knowing there's anyone behind him So I tickled him a little bit and he jumped and scooted back as fast as he could and ran straight into Gus And Gus had no idea what hit him and and I laughed so hard my mask flooded Yeah, I just Right through my head I'm like whoa the poor lobster didn't even know what was going on All of a sudden there's people all around in the back of his hole Yeah, big as well. It's a very big lobster. Yeah, he was he's four or five pounds. Oh man. It was uh Yeah, that was pretty funny So now you just need a chest protector next time together Just to talk about Mike's ability just what's in here. I don't want to embarrass him but with the when I went to Abaco with Mike and with Brian K. Look Brian told me you have to die these caves sidebound period You can't get in without being sidebound So he has his sidekick side mount or breather. I went in my sidewinder that Mike designed so we get to one restriction and Brian has to help me even on the sidewinder figure out how the heck I'm going to get through this little area So he and Mike finally get me through this area on side mount Only for me to turn around and Mike just swam through it on back mount his back mount spirit So that Yes, you have to be in side mount to dive abaco unless you're Mike young right exactly right and that's funny because you I remember that story and then Mike said that because he's diving the sidewinder here on the trip And I'm like why you diving the sidewinder? Oh because we were supposed to go to a cave that I can only go through on the sidewinder Yeah, I'm like okay, then I forget that one He got to give a shout out to Brian kick up as well I mean he's artful to watch in those caves. He's precision is Unbelievable He has to protect those caves the abacus in the abacus there's so many fragile crystals and just to watch him Is is something special? If I did for 11 days Where I would hear him if I moved a pinky I would hear But here's what I want to wrap the show with and close the show with is Anyone listening to this show the says you know what that sounds pretty cool I do want to join that small group of people that are able to go into caves and be safe But I don't know how to go about it Maybe you dog who you're a caving instructor as this bike As this mic you guys talk about If someone wants to getting to cave diving Let's say they're just open what let's say they're master divers in open circuit Okay, and they say I want to I want to get to that What would you recommend the path to be to get there? the the Options are if you're open circuit, you know the lot the lot most cave divers open circuit cave divers. So I would They're multiple agencies. I think the key is like with any kind of diving you want to instruct the right instructor So talk to friends talk to mentors find a who would be the right instructor fit for you um The pathway With open circuit is kind of cavern intro Which is cavern diving and then just staying on the main line and you can move up through Apprentice and full cave or you can go the CCR route if you're CCR certified And then do a CCR cave class and all them are long I mean like you're saying it's you know weak long class and I think the last CCR cave class I taught minimums 10 hours But I think we spent 18 hours underwater. Yeah, for sure And you did you're a Brian you did your open water cave class right first. Yes Yeah, started out with cavern and intro and apprentice and full cave in open circuit Okay, and you trained through whom was it? I was actually through the nacd when they were still viable and around and rick macar was the instructor and And have a lot of respect for him and his skills and we worked our asses off till 230 in the morning Yeah, just trying to figure stuff out and trying to get that muscle memory developed so that You can do things without thinking about it because you got other things to think about That's awesome. What do you think Mike the path Well Doug Doug really summed it up But but personally I always have a conversation with people first and it's like why do you want to do it? What what what is gonna what is attracting you and what is your end goal you wanting to go be able to swim in a certain place or do a certain thing And then I try to recommend an instructor that would fit that So so that they got to their end result that they needed you know So right This is out there. I mean, you know that do Ketnical dive into do cave diving but again all the all the standards are very I would say they're the same, but they're very very close very very similar So it doesn't necessarily matter if you have a iA and dd or a tdi or a g maybe gwe's a little bit higher up there Or you know in a cds But as long as you have the really excellent instructor for you or the personnel is the same you get the goals aligned Yeah, that's the way to do it. Another thing is There's there's people say yeah, I want to learn to cave dive and And there's a lot of instructors that you can you can do it all in one course, you know start to finish That's not really a good thing to do either because you might get halfway through and decide uh this really isn't for me and We call it zero to hero and doing it all in one shot without Having time to develop each skill along the way is is not a good way to do it. It's better to do the classes and segments Do you know cavern and then go cavern diving for a little while and build that that skill tool. It's You know muscle memory to its automatic and then go to the next step and that way If you do decide well, this may not be for me You don't have that huge investment and feel that you have to finish because you already started and you paid for it for one thing right but and and I like a mentoring system better myself too because the more experience you have The more you're going to retain that memory and the way to get Experience is to mentor with somebody and go diving with them and and let them show you the tricks and the easy thing not just what's in the book But I love that and I think we cave diving and with diving in general We happen to do a sport or an activity in which you can actually go and learn and dive with the best people in the world You can do that with basketball or baseball. You know you get a lot of James to teach you to do a jump shop It's like young to teach you to cave dive And another thing too is the existing cave divers out there I've heard people say all the time well I won't dive with somebody unless they're at least this level And that's really the wrong answer too because what you need to do is you have an obligation to help the next generation come along And if you're not willing to dive at their level and mentor them and help them along when they need it Then you know, I mean you you have that obligation Somebody helped you whenever you were getting started and so you have that obligation It doesn't matter what level of cave diver you are there's somebody around who is less skilled than you are And could use a little bit of experience. I like that Absolutely. I mean you think about imprinting and how you how somebody learns and how they put that end emotion for themselves and people that Go the zero to hero route, you know, they may have learned an incredible amount during that course But check back with them four months later and maybe they had a gap and it's not completely imprinted And it's like you need to do it. Well, I'm trying to recreate something or do something different You need to do it. You need to cave dive a lot afterwards And with a random With a random tour and not push any limits and another thing that I think a lot of people get locked into And it comes from the open water days, you know You go open water diving and you've got this instructor and he saved your life And so he's your instructor and he may be a mediocre instructor But in your mind he's the best instructor in the world because he was your instructor And so you do your advanced with him and you do your nitrox with him and you know So in my opinion People should should use a variety of instructors because each instructor is going to teach you different techniques and they're gonna they're gonna emphasize Different areas and it's not a bad idea to say take cavern with one instructor And then go take your next level with another instructor and get you know And then if you're gonna go to an environment that's new to you say say you are a Florida diver And you're gonna go dive the caves over in Mexico and the Yuga-tan They're different go spend a day with an instructor and learn what he knows and and and get the tips and tricks from him And then and then use a guide Yeah, and then use a guide over there Absolutely, yeah, absolutely I would I would want to do that for a couple years before I would go without a guide Oh, absolutely for sure. Thank you guys so much. Yeah Great way to wrap up the one year anniversary of the show show of 2021 first show of 2021 Great way to start dive talk great way to start the year Thank you so much for for joining me on the show and and Woody and hopefully we get to do this again on another Amazing topic in the future. Thanks guys. We got to put another one of these trips together. It's been I'm glad you thank you for this together. It's a great trip. Can we do it next month again? Yeah I'll see you guys for the year of the year of the year It's a tradition right? It's a tradition safe diving guys