title: Episode 28: DEEP DIVING
author: DIVE TALK
contenttype: podcast
publication: DIVE TALK
published: 2021-02-05T12:00:00-05:00
sourceurl: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/divetalk/Episode_28.mp3?dest-id=1756346
word_count: 7365
Welcome everyone to dive talk episode number 28 This this episode is going to be Mainly focused on a question. They came up in one of the scuba groups that we're a member of on Facebook Somebody posted a question saying you know what agency or who out there is teaching the deepest class on air I can take I want to go to 150 feet I want to go to 170 feet on air who I can get sir who can I get certified? You know from out there that will take me to those depth and There were probably hundreds of answers in this thing And I think there was pretty even split on Number one people that were making recommendations You should go with this agency or whatever don't worry about it Just people dive on air Deep all the time and then there were other people there were kind of outrage at the idea of going past 130 on air and recommending Getting training on try-mix and you know breathing the air that makes sense for the depth that they wanted to dive So the whole idea of this episode is to talk about deep diving So Woody what's deep? Let's start with that. I'm not gonna start with that Here's what I'm gonna start with because it's that whole thing you just said It it's confusing and let me explain why this is what you need to start with you've got to talk about The issues related to diving deeper and deeper there is no definition of deep diving What does that mean? Here's what we care about and this is what's really important because I read that thread and 99% of the answers made absolutely no sense I could tell they have no idea what they're talking about So when we teach deep or Mix gases we talk about primarily three things number one Narcosis When are you going to start feeling Nitrogen Narcosis by the way most people that are of Credibility will also say oxygen is just has just as many narcotics affects as nitrogen So gas other than helium Can create the ability to not be able to think clearly at what depth? I don't know and either does anybody else how dark-dark are you? Don't know Everybody's different. There's no way to get used to it though people well I've learned to get used to it on true no scientific proof of that so that's the first issue when What at what point are you? Nark and what do you do if you're narked? What do you do with your gas mix? What do you do and so forth now? Most people will say once you break below 100 feet They can really start feeling it and most agencies will say you're You're entering into anything that's beyond basic recreational level believe it or not below 60 feet You can already start feeling narked without knowing it below 60 feet Okay, and that's not up for a discussion because it's a waste of time or am I narked? Am I not narked below that depth? whatever Let's use science second issue so that's one big issue about Deep is narkosis and we'll get and we'll get to that right issue number two of very serious issue is CNS oxygen toxicity There's two forms one is a limit of how much partial pressure of oxygen your body can handle before you start to convulse underwater It's just that simple a body can handle this level of the partial pressure of oxygen not the percent of oxygen your body does not care about the percent of oxygen Most people will say at the recreational level When calculating the maximum operating depth of a gas for the purposes of making sure you don't Have a CNS oxygen toxicity convulsion don't calculate it beyond a 1.4 partial pressure the outer limit for anybody calculating even technical divers planning should not be beyond 1.6 Right you can't push it you can't get used to it a very famous Extremely well-known without mentioning her name brilliant Technical diver decided to test it and died because she pushed it when they found her computer She was up in the high and the mid to high 2's She said I'm gonna test it as far as I can with regular air. She's dead I don't know what that limit is but I'm not testing it too far Yeah, we know it's 1.4 is safe 1.4 matter limit 1.6 Yeah, so that's the second issue we have to deal with in this conversation What gas do we need what percent of oxygen do we need so the partial pressure won't be Below or higher than excuse me 1.4 absolutely not higher than 1.6, okay, right so we have that And then finally what we have to deal with is the long-term exposures of Oxygen You can have you can you can have a long-term effect from having a partial pressure For too long at different levels for example at 1.0 partial pressure I think I got to look at the chart so don't shoot me everybody out there is like We don't want you to have more than 300 minutes on a single dive at 1.0 And I forget what the 24 hour limit is because that can start to have Long-term CNS Oxygen toxicity on your lungs on your lungs pulmonary effects And I know people listening to this will be like bohui. What are you talking about 300 minutes is Five hours. No one is doing that You're doing that if you're doing rebreaters, yeah, you can do that because a rebreater certainly can handle that in many cases Yes, okay So with those with those stages set Now what we have to do, and by the way, I'm leaving out another whole separate category of discussion which is simple gas planning. How much gas do I need to get back to the surface from my deepest point in the dive? We got to talk about that. Safely including DECO. Yes. Okay, so you got to know your sac rate and so forth. So we can't leave that out of the discussion, but first let's talk about these items. So let's talk the first one we mentioned is Narcosis. I don't want to feel more narked than a hundred feet. So I want to be able to create a gas and I teach it this way. I want to be able to create a gas where my equivalent, I call it NART depth, my END, my equivalent NART depth. How NART do I want to feel? I don't want to feel more than a hundred feet on regular air NART at any point in my dive. So there is a formula for calculating that which I'm thankful our audience is going to thank me that I'm not going through the formula. Instead I will go to IDECO Pro. Right. And what I'll do is I'll start changing the mixture of gas. So just logically, what do I need to do to make it such that I'm not going to feel as NART. I've got a lower the percent of nitrogen. And in fact, I also lower the percent of oxygen because some people argue that that's still narcotic as well. What do I add when I lower that down? The gas that we are using because it's relatively safe. There are other gases that don't have narcotic effects but we don't use them because one of them is like you could turn into a bomb underwater. But the one that is stable and safe is helium. Right. So helium is an interesting gas. Helium does not have nearly the narcotic effects of nitrogen and oxygen. Not zero narcotic effects but very minimal. So okay, great. We're adding helium. At the same time, if I'm going deep and I have to balance well, I also, I'm not, now I've got the narcotic effect under control. I added enough helium to the mix so I don't feel more than 100 feet dark. Woody's preference. Right. Maybe somebody may say something different for themselves. I don't want to be more than that. What about oxygen? Because that second thing, that conversation we just had about, well, what about the oxygen problems? I can't have, I don't want to have a partial pressure of more than 1.4, a Woody choice but also a pretty high recommended choice. Okay. So I start lowering the oxygen percent as well because the body only cares about the partial pressure of oxygen. That's going to determine whether or not I go hypoxic is the partial pressure of oxygen. Right. So I lower that to a level where in my case, I'm never going to be more than 1.4. Now, you know for, rebreeder divers out there that you want to have an oxygen level so that your dill mix, if you have to bring down your partial pressure of oxygen inside of a loop for a rebreeder quickly because it's spiking or going up. Right. Because we don't want to convulse. Right. We want to be able to dill it down to no more than a 1.0. That's a standard rule with a dill flush as you guys, as you know. Right. Okay. So now I have to bring in enough helium and lower the oxygen percent such that I can dill flush it to 1.0 based upon the depth that I'm planning my dive to. Am I going to 200 feet? Am I going to 333 feet? Am I going to 180 feet? Right. So you, I, we pick our planned depth and then we back into how much helium and how much oxygen do we need for that planned depth? That's right. The thread that you showed me was people discussing, well, I don't have a problem going to 180 feet on air. Well, all of that is maybe fine if everything goes perfection. Right. That's what they left out of that thread. They are not, no matter what they want to say, they're not. So any kind of multitasking, they're in big trouble out the window. Yeah. Also, if they start to panic, if they have a problem at that depth and they're not because they're on regular air, I don't, I don't need to hear that they're not not. They're not. That's science. You know what that's going to do? That's going to increase their breathing rate really fast. Now that's going to create a CO2 problem, carbon dioxide. And that's a spiral effect. I've been there guys. I've rescued somebody that all basically was going to die on me. Once you start breathing that quick, your carbon dioxide, your CO2 is going through the roof inside of you. And it's actually a spiral effect because the body thinks it needs to take a breath based upon the CO2 buildup. So it's making you go faster and faster and faster and breathe faster and faster. Really bad stuff because now you're also taking in more and more of that oxygen mix. You're getting more and more dark, more and more CO2. And you could convulse. Your partial pressure could really go through the roof. The second thing they had a flaw on is they're pushing the outer limit of the maximum operating depth of air when they're down there at 180 feet because remember, we can't be more than a 1.4 partial pressure. Well, how many atmospheres is 180 feet? If somebody could do that on their calculator, I can't, and I can explain it really fast. Okay. But there are disadvantages of helium. We're going to get to it. Everybody hold on because we have to talk about something else that we haven't talked about. It's 6.45 atmospheres is 180 feet. 6.45 now multiply that by 21 percent by 0.21. That's a warm, no, no, you think you've made done the math around there. Do it again. 6. Whatever times 0.21, 0.21 on that. So 1.3, 1.35. You're getting close to your outer limit of your maximum partial pressure. So you don't have a lot of room for air, right? You're down at that depth. If you slip down a little bit because of confusion, being darked or carbon dioxide hit, and you're on a big wall, and it's very easy not to know how much you're moving, right? And you drop down another 10 or 20 feet. You're out. You could convulse. Yeah, I mean, do I push it to that level? That's my point. If you think of a 1.4, 1.4, you hit at 187. So 180, just right below that 1.35, 1.36. Yeah. You're getting pretty close. You know, we have, we have down currents at times. You could be swimming in all of a sudden, have a down current and push you right down 20, 30 feet like that. Okay, you're you're convulsing. So don't get near that. So don't get near that. Forget, we already talked about that, whoever is doing this is narked out of their mind. Yeah, whether they think they are not is not up for my discussion. But now they're risking the fact that they could convulse. And that isn't good. That's your drown. You could drown. So now, but the worst part about this whole thing would start going around. No, the worst, the worst part about this whole thing is that there's really no good reason to not do try mix other than, well, I don't want to go and get certified. And second, I don't want to pay for helium. Helium is more expensive. That's that's really the argument there. It's not that don't tell you. Helium is more dangerous. Or you know, I like there's there's another chance that I'm going to lose my lip. No, like there's no other risk other than it's a little bit more expensive than air, or maybe a lot more expensive than air, depending on what kind of diving do you do. And you know, there's extra training that now I have to go through to learn how to use helium. You brought up a thank you excellent point. There are other issues with helium. So we have to talk about now the other side of helium. Yep. Yes, it's more expensive. What I will tell you, first of all, if you're doing this based upon the cost of helium, I have a really simple answer for our dive talk listeners. Don't do it. Don't do the dive. Don't go deep. Don't go deep. Yep. You're not right in your conversation that you can handle it that you can get used to it. Okay, I've just had death on my hands and even re every cent something has happened and don't do it. You're gambling. Yeah. But let's talk about helium. Helium, another benefit of helium that people don't realize is it's lighter. The gas is lighter. Now that lower density of helium reduces the breathing resistance at depth, which is another problem by the way with diving regular air depth because it gets harder and harder to breathe. And that can cause a CO2 issue as well. So helium, the resistance, the work of breathing is easier. So that helps with depth. That's a great thing. I remember when I was going through an on moxic training the first time I used trimax. We went down to like 160 with trimax. And I took a sip of that. And I was like, why am I wasting time with air? This is the best thing ever. It's pretty awesome. The way breathes is like, you, I think our equivalent, narc depth, I guess, as you mentioned, was like 60 feet out of 160 because of our mix. And it was amazing. It is amazing. Yeah. Okay. Now you know in the world with all good things, sometimes there's bad things. Yeah. There's always a double sided coin. Payback. So look, let's let's talk about this from a lot of research that's out there, not Woody. I am I'm I don't deserve the credibility of this conversation. I'm a parrot of much more intelligent people than myself. Now we said it weighs less because of that lower molecular weight. What is it doing? It's entering and leaving tissues more rapidly. Hear me on that. It enters more rapidly. But it leaves more rapidly. A lot more in that story where we have to discuss. So it doesn't it doesn't load the tissues as heavily as nitrogen. They're not getting as saturated even though it's entering it faster. It's not as dense. So the tissues aren't loaded as much. But at the same time, they cannot support as high an amount of helium when they're super saturated. So that gets into the saturation divers and we're not that saturation divers. By the way, everybody are like those are like your oil rig guys where they're your tissues every compartment, 16 of them cannot get any more saturated. There's nothing left in your tissues to saturate. You super saturated them. They're maxed out. That's it. Your computer stops. There's you've reached the maximum out of DECA you need to do. And it's a very long time, which is like a week. Exactly. They're living in an underwater situation at that point. Okay. Now that's a big advantage that it's going to it's a faster gas to saturate and desaturated in saturation diving. But in bounce diving where the increased rate of off-gassing is largely counterbalanced by the equivalent increased rate of on-gassing, that's not such a good thing. This is the so-called helium penalty. Okay. There's another so you may have deeper stops than you would have on a normal gas. You're going to have to stop deeper than you normally would because of this quicker saturation. But remember it's going to come out quicker. But that's going to trigger it to require you to stop deeper than you would if you were on a different gas. During the deepest dive that we did as part of the non-moxic training, we got to 200 feet. You have to do it as part of the class. I think our first stop was at 120. Remember that. And you probably never before that you just wouldn't have a stop on that. Exactly. So some people were like, well, that's a little bit of a helium penalty. There's no good arguments anymore. I think the main argument that it was an overall increasing your decompression time overall is kind of out the window because remember it leaves the tissues quicker. Now that will depend upon the model that you set. I'm very conservative. I use a 40, 70 per hour and then we have factors and I'm going to always stay conservative that way. Another disadvantage of helium is one that I'm very sensitive to. Is it warmer or is it colder than regular gas? What do you think? Helium is really cold. Yeah. So maybe that's why I like it. So you're breathing it. Your internal body temperature is colder. By the way, the numbers on that just so you know it's science, it conducts heat six times faster than air. So it's really colder. That's a big difference. Okay. Yeah. So how about your dry suit? If you're connected to that gas with your dry suit, it's expensive and you're freezing. What does being cold do? So it's one thing to say we're uncomfortable, right? I don't want to be cold. But okay, I don't think that would be such a discussed issue if you were just cold. But cold is a problem when it comes to decompression diving. Yeah. We don't off-gas nearly it as well when we're cold as when we're not. It just slows down. The movement of the blood and everything slows down and that's a problem. You could you could go hyperthermic with heat with helium. Do our computers adjust for that? By the way, because our computers can tell obviously the temperature of the water. I just wonder if if you do the same exact dive on a warmer weather if the deco time is shorter. That's such a good point and that's the problem. No. No. Wow. So what can happen, what they've seen is if people are doing these, I would be very, very conservative with helium on your deco. I would be a little longer. What I'll typically do is you know what? My deco is over on both of my computers. I'm going to stay another minute. You know what I mean? I'm going to just give it another minute at a whatever bump your PO2 up a little bit. You're probably at 20 feet at that point to 1.4. Give it another minute if you're on helium. Just to be extra, extra safe. If you were feeling cold especially. Yeah. Okay. If you're feeling cold, you absolutely want to want to do that. Okay. So by the way, just to go back to that threat or the threat that was on Facebook where they were talking about it, somebody was saying, well, if you go really deep, it gets really expensive because you have to bring like four tanks with you. And if you think about it, like, yeah, you're filling up an aluminum 40 with with try mix. That's only like 25 bucks. But if you're feeling two 120s, for example, or four 80s or something like that, now you're looking at $150, $180 of air fills just to do the deep dive. So it gets expensive. But at that point, I'm like, look, if you're doing those deep dives in open circuit a lot, why don't you just get a rebreather? You don't have to carry as much gas and the cost kind of offsets it. Whereas and somebody made that comment. They said, they said, look, if you spend all that money and gas at the end of the, you know, after a certain number of dives, you have nothing to show, but the gas that you breath and breath out. But if you buy a rebreather, at least you'll spend the money, but you'll have to rebreather. You have something to show for the money that you spent. Yes. Yeah. So so you brought up a lot again, a lot of good points there. So if we have this try mix gas because we went really deep, so we have a lot of helium and we lowered the oxygen. How do we get to the surface? Now, right, everybody out there listening to this conversation, I want you to hear this. If you bailed off of a rebreather and you went on that try mix gas that has a lot of helium and very little oxygen. At some point, the partial pressure of that oxygen is going to go to a hypoxic level. What is that number? Well, I think most people would agree that they don't want to push it below 0.16. And certainly most people cannot, if anybody cannot maintain consciousness below 0.10. You are unconscious. The problem with hypoxia is one second, you're conscious. And the next second, you're not. And why and why is the earlier conversation? What does your body, what triggers your body to breathe? Is it oxygen or is it carbon dioxide? CO2. That's the problem. Your body doesn't know that it has low a low P02. It's like that's not making me feel the need to breathe more. I feel fine. And your P02 is so low that all the sudden, you go to sleep underwater and die. That's hypoxic. This is the risk of try mix. This is why there's a class for try mix. You have to know and understand all these issues. So what do you do? We have any answer to the question? How do you get to the surface? You can't go to the surface on that mix. You will pass out. You will be unconscious. So now you have to carry another gas. We call it the shallow gas. Well, those of you that like the math, 50% oxygen, if you carried that with you, we can't breathe that deep because of the other issue we discussed earlier. Your P02 would be too high and you would convolve. So at what depth does breathing 50% become safe? We say, we'll let you for the sake of emergency getting to the surface start breathing that at 70 feet. I bet if you ran the numbers, you would find that to be a partial pressure of oxygen of 1.6 or very close. The outer limit. That's right. But now you're going up, right? You're taking that 50% all the way to the surface. It's probably going to help you with your D-Go. You're going to stop on the way up from the 70 feet based on what your computer says. You're safe. You can take that, certainly you can take that all the way to the surface. Sure. One more thing that I'll add, the conversation. Many people say, I certainly believe we want to always do this is, if you're going to do a very deep dive, whatever you define that as, is a whole thread of conversation, I would strongly recommend you have at the 20 foot stop 100% oxygen. Because the 50% is going to require a lot longer D-Go, then 100% at 20 feet. What's the partial pressure of 100% oxygen at 20 feet? 1.6. 1.6 again. We went back to that outer limit. That's helping us finish our D-Go and then we take that all the way up to the surface. Now, if that would have been the conversation and that thread, which I very, very rarely post in, I wouldn't have posted. But it wasn't the conversation. It was silly talk and it was dangerous talk. People acting like, well, I've taken air to 180 feet and they don't talk about all the what ifs that we just discuss and the science. You need to take a deep class. This is not something to experiment with. There's no room for error. Gus, you always tell me something when stuff goes bad, when you're deep, it goes bad really fast, very, very fast. Okay, so I just wanted this show to be a little bit of an education to entice people to, I love diving deep. It's absolutely phenomenal. I love diving trimics. I love seeing deeper wrecks. I like seeing things on walls that maybe nobody else has set their eyes on. But I want to do it with a planned dive with the right amount of gas with intelligent decisions like the conversation we're having right now. And with other people that are trained. Yeah, and yeah, I agree. And that's why I want to chime in and talk about this specific topic. It's also the scourging to see that some of the people posting, like I've been to 180 on air and I'm fine, are instructors and are open water instructors are people out there. I've seen comments from, I know, I've seen posts out there on that group from people bragging that they were on air at 240, 220, taking pictures. And when you look at their profile, these are divers have been doing it for a long, long time. So my issue is that in groups like this, newer divers that don't really know, like, hey, can I go deep on air? Like I don't know. Are getting advice from people that look reputable on Facebook that is totally wrong. It's such a great point you're making. I'm staying quiet, which is hard for me. It's really devastating to the dive industry. Because when these fatalities happen, I told you a very famous, very well known woman who's to speak to us at all of the interspace sessions at night, who spoke about specialized in a doctor, specialized in deep diving and CNS oxygen toxicity issues and all these partial pressures decided to self test it on herself. Other reputable people warned her, do not do the dive. You just told us you're going to do. We, we beg you not to do it. No, no, I can handle it. And she died. By the way, she did it alone. So loaded, solo did on air. Wow. I know. So, you know, that thread was just one of the worst ones. I, I love dive education. You know, I guess I always want to learn more from people that are more experienced. And I want to associate and dive with people that follow the rules. They want to do the cool stuff. It's what they want to go deep. They're not saying don't do these things, but they want to do it the right way. And I think the group that we hang out with, if you notice tends to subscribe to that. I mean, the dug ever saws of the world, the Randy Thornton's of the world. I mean, you know, these guys are world class, but they're not breaking the rules. No. Yeah. And that's the difference. And I, okay, so, so at this point, I think people listening to this will be like, what did you sold me? I'm going to go try and mix. I want to do it. Let's talk about the process to get there. Okay. How do you get there? And by the way, I just want to say that diving deep is not for everyone. Like I have friends that are like, I love diving up to 60 feet on beautiful corals, warm waters. That's all I want to do. And it's awesome. The dive is longer. I can see way more stuff because there's light, warmer, way warmer. Like everything is just awesome. If that's you, perfect. Like you don't have to go to 200 or 300 feet. You don't have to. Could not agree. At all. But then there's those that say, I want to go deep. Yes. What is the best way to go? Really deep. I want to go to that 300 foot wreck. You know, that's, yeah, only a handful of people have gone to how can I do that? So I want to talk about the process to get there. Okay. Well, you're actually very good to be able to talk about this. I have to say because you yourself just became what is known as normal six certified. So there are different levels. So the process to get there is your first at the recreational level would be to take a deep diving class at the recreational level. And that maximum depth limit is going to get you down to 130 feet. Yeah. There's some amazing wrecks at 130 feet. I like to have a purpose for going deep. The Spiegel Grove, which is a very famous wreck in Key Largo, the bottom decks, the propeller, some of the lower stuff down there is at 130 feet. So you'll learn you won't learn to dive on a mixed gas, but you'll learn to dive the right enriched air mix and learn gas planning to have the right amount of gas to be able to dive to 130 feet staying outside of the no decompression limits. So you still could go to the surface at any point in your dive. Honestly, that's your starting point. Yep. Because that's deep. 130 feet is deep, right? That's a deep dive. The next level though, 20 meters for those of you. Okay. The metrics. So the next level outside of that is where we start to talk about decompression diving. We're no longer able to go directly to the surface without a mandatory stop or you are going to get bent. So we go into decodiving. Now, whether or not you need a mixed gas is going to depend upon how narked your instructor or you are willing to get. I'm not wanting, certainly I don't want to be below 130 feet. I don't like to go to 130 feet on enriched air. I'd rather I want to be on a mixed gas on a rebreather, frankly, because I told you I don't want to have an END and I call it equivalent nark depth beyond 100 feet. So your first level after that there are some levels in between but the next big jump is 200 feet. Yeah. Okay. 60 meters. Yeah. All right. So 200 feet were going to have to add helium into the mix. Because you would be narked out of your mind. Yeah. And depending on the agency by the way and what what would you say in about different levels is depending on the agency they have they take you from 40 to 45 to 55 to 60 like there's kind of a bunch of little steps in between but the next big jump is 60 getting getting to 60 exactly. So let me just do one quick thing. I'm like. Okay. So if you're going to go to 200 feet and you don't want to have more than a 1.4 partial pressure the absolute maximum amount of oxygen you could have but this is just for the purpose of CNS of a convulsion is about 19.8%. However what we want to do is we want to say in our case I want to be able to flush it down to 1.0. So a standard gas mix for your not for your not or moxic is 1640 mix that means 16% oxygen and there's a reason for 16% 40% helium. Can you get to the surface with that gas? Yeah 16% 16% but they don't want to push it below that. So that's why it's 16% most people will not lose consciousness as long as they have about 16% oxygen all the way to the surface. So so far on on normal toxic class you could stay on that gas all the way to the surface but you got to make your stops because you're out probably going to go outside to no decompression limits for sure and the 40% the helium portion is to deal with how dark do I want to get? Well that 40% is going to make you probably feel at 200 feet like you're I'd have to open up I'd go pro but you're probably not going to feel much more dark than at about 100 feet. Okay so that's the next level it's a class nor moxic and you're going to learn all about deep diving gas planning and mixed gas. After your nor moxic class the next big jump up from there would be some people call it trimix some people call it hypoxic that is a class that is rating you to go to 100 meters or 330 feet. Well that's pretty deep you're going to need to now you're going to need to have a gas that's going to not be able to take to the surface. Your mix would be something like a 1060 it would be an example 10% oxygen 60% helium that's like a standard if you will try mix gas. Yeah can't breathe out to the surface right you've got to have a shallow gas that's why that class is another threshold because now you actually have to change gases. And by the way I like the fact that these classes both nor moxic and full trimix have minimum requirements. You can just go and do like you know my deep recreational class you know and on Friday then on Saturday I'm going to do nor moxic on Sunday I'm doing trimix that's the how it works right you have to have a bunch of different dives and I don't remember I think it's something like 25 dives pass 160 feet for me to even qualify that's right to the try mix training. And then I think once you're on nor moxic I can't remember it's different for different agencies and I don't have the standards open in front of me I do think it's either 25 or 50 dives using a nor moxic gas. Yeah I think it's 25 okay yeah from nor moxic to try mix but even to get to nor moxic I had to have 50 hours or 50 dives that were like deep dives. Yeah between 100 and 100 and 130. Yeah exactly so you have to have these minimum requirements and the same for cave diving as well. Cavern your progression for cave diving is the same once you start making it into these I guess the situations these dives in which you have to have your shit together essentially yeah they have this minimum requirements in place which is not the same if you want to I mean you can take in a weekend night deep and wreck all you know all combined kind of thing that's easy because those the that lead that level is not as well you're still in the no deco limit right still a breathing of gas you could get to the surface with this is a whole different ballgame to your point and have you ever noticed that maybe you remember when you did your rebreather it's really funny like after about 25 dives how it sort of all comes together and it feels natural it just clicks it all makes sense it's much easier so that 25 some pretty experience people figured out it's about 25 dives to really get your blank together as you said so that's the general track and it's really a lot of fun I think you'll learn significantly more about diving in general yeah the real science behind diving when you take these technical dive classes by the way these are technical you're now into the word technical diving because you're outside the no deco limit whether you do it on a rebreather which I know you and I absolutely would recommend or you do it on open circuit you can do nor moxican hypoxic on rebreather or on open circuit either one yeah you have a lot um I can't imagine I can imagine doing a 300 foot dive a lot of circuit I mean watch that SPG when we when we do the hypoxic class you're going to bail out from 300 or something on open circuit and you're going to be looking at your SPG and then I'm when we debrief on the surface they'll be like so now do you think gas planning is important think about how many times faster every breath is sucking down that's like 10 times faster yeah per breath that you're breathing down your gas at that depth yeah I'm looking forward to I mean we have to bail out from 200 exactly within or moxican which was awesome awesome and now from 330 it's going to be it's amazing it's awesome it's a really cool thing but yeah I'm glad we we got to talk about deep diving because again there's that's the myths conception out there that is you know how deep can I go on air that's that should be a non-question right it's not about can how deep can you go because like you said if everything goes perfect you know can you go to 150 and come back and be alive yeah but everything has to go perfect that's right and there's no point on risking it for what like what's no what's deep that why why why risk it doesn't make any sense I don't get it well because my fill is $10 rather than 40 and that that's not a price on your life I mean this is really we're not joking yeah you can die you said it if everything goes perfect yeah you know you're on a deep rack at 180 feet and you're all twisted up in fishing line because a lot of these racks have them oh man your breathing is gonna go through the roof and you're at 180 feet that's not a good situation game over yeah all right well everyone I hope you enjoyed the conversation about deep diving if you have any other questions comments for us always you know feel free to email us at info at divetalkmedia.com we do get emails ones in a while by the way cool with questions and stuff I was just talking to someone who was thinking about getting a rebreather and they were asking like why do you guys pick the one you have and they had all these questions about it which is great so yeah feel free to to reach out to us info at divetalkmedia.com and you know we're out there on the Facebook's trying to shed some clarity but just be careful out there if you are asking people on the internet which is obviously not something I advise even when you get someone I would eat to respond I would say talk to someone who's reputable your dive shot probably can point you on the right direction if they don't have someone yeah or you yeah we're in the know both of us I mean you want to talk to people that are in the know correct and have done and have done the training the proper way that's just the thing that I keep stressing out there and it's it's strange when you see you know like the original author of that thread he was responding to somebody with like the picture of a pin win right on the profile like taking it seriously like oh I understand what you're saying like dude like right you know I know this guy's not even a real person like take it easy so yeah just be careful out there anything else yeah yeah I wanted to add one statement I really love diving like I can't think of anything more in my life I don't know what I would do without diving I don't know I really don't I actually don't know what do people do that don't dive I know I think they golf which I I feel that fortress it's just awesome that we have this dive community we're really fortunate we were talking about that today we really are very very lucky to be able to do the things we do and see a part of the world that I keep saying to me is the best part of the world so sure and if you hear that there's a little bit of echo in this episode is because we're recording on the go because that's your technical like pod or what podcaster do you think I would know for Zach we are now in the Florida panhandle but seems like we're in Zai diving diving yeah it's super cool out here we're trying to dive this trip by the way was the first time we're actually recording video as we go on the trip you know of the whole process and stuff if you want to watch you know more stuff about the trip today we got to play on our DPVs that was so much fun right award tech springs so if you if you want to just you know see more of us just out there diving and getting after it just go to our youtube channel dive talk search on youtube I think if you type youtube slash c slash dive talk c for channel you can get to youtube.com slash c slash dive talk you can get to it now but anyway just go check us out subscribe to the channel because we'll be releasing some more videos in the future but yeah hopefully you guys enjoy this episode and we'll see you on the next one see you soon