title: Episode 30: DIVER’S CEMETERY
author: DIVE TALK
contenttype: podcast
publication: DIVE TALK
published: 2021-03-05T12:00:00-05:00
sourceurl: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/divetalk/Episode30Full.mp3?dest-id=1756346
word_count: 8170
Hello everyone and welcome to yet another episode of dive talk. This is episode number 30 and Well, you saw the title. We won't be talking about Sunshine and rainbows In this episode, but you know a couple of weeks ago or a few weeks ago We started a series in our YouTube channel dive talk media YouTube channel and called cave diver react Me and Woody are both certified CCR cave divers and you know, I think I saw a Video everything sorry because I saw a video about Jacob swell, which is this you know sinkhole slash cave and Texas and He had millions and millions and millions of views and after watching it for like 10 minutes or so I realized that there were so many issues and inconsistencies and just plain Ignorance about cave diving and you know, they made it sound like it was suicide and you know all this other stuff So I decided to react that cave diver react video and then that That essentially became a request to make other ones and Woody has now hosted you know a video And I've hosted a couple of videos as well and you know, we keep getting a ton of traction But you know one of the one of the things that I noticed is that people are saying Some of the comments on the video for example say like why would you go diving into Dead devils eye like that's just what are you doing and For us who go to genus brings all the time where little devil devil side devil is ear Is those entrances to the cave system there? I do you ever feel like scare about going into the devil's eye or whatever like No, but the reason I don't feel scared and probably the reason you don't feel scared is We're really trained and did tremendous preparation on every single dive before we go in right? It's not that we're not It's not that we're not Concerned or taking it as blasei like that. It's not a technical dive with a lot of current in an overhead environment That's gonna lose light. We're not saying that we don't feel scared because man think about the preparation that you did to be able to get to the point where you don't feel scared Yeah, that's the difference Absolutely that is the difference and you know one of things that I noticed is that in a lot of cases The the places that are the deadliest for for divers don't have names like devils eye and devils ear and you know stuff like that They have names like blue hole and blue hole in Egypt is considered to be the deadliest sight diving sight So I found an article from live magazine that is titled the Middle East has the world's deadliest diving site This man recovers the bodies drown in it so it's more about the Person who goes and recovers the the people that drown in this hole because apparently is routine like it just happens all the time And that's a little concerning so I wanted to you know go through the article with you and talk about why you think people are drowning there like what's up with that? Why that place and not the Bluehole embolese or and whatever because there's a lot of different countries that have blue hole But why is it that this place is so deadly so let's get started so he says when he's not instructing technical diving Tarek Omar recovers the bodies of other divers from the haps blue hole The the reporter I I'm gonna butcher this name. I think it's Navin Maybe Navin gonheim sits down with a record setting technical diver to talk missions in diverse cemetery By the way diverse cemetery is the nickname of this site go stories and pushing the boundaries of human limitations All right, so back to the article Somewhere beyond the earth yellows and sandy browns that stretch into infinity and cyanide It's prodigious copper mountain stower over the vast blues of the red sea along the southeast coast sits the town of the Hab Which is Arabic for gold In case you wanted to know that little piece of information in all its understated glory a hippie come Communion a diverse mecca a bastion of Bohemia and a backspacker paradise the real gold However is found in the towns other worldly pristine landscapes imploring you to believe in great things. Okay, so maybe we shouldn't read the whole article because we hear for a long time because we want to talk about the blue hole right and it says Beneath the surface the sea remains true to its treacherous nature many ventured to these inhospitable deaths Define their own human limitation for a few moments of respite from a all the mundane Vanalities and constitute the bank of our existence anyway this that this writer's going into it But it's talking about starting to talk about some of the people that died in this hole Two of such adventures were Irish technical divers Connor or Regan and Martin Garra The deep came calling before they either one of them turned 25 So before their 25th birthday they went there their bodies were found locked in an embraced a hundred and two meters deep So over 330 feet deep Inside of the haps infamous blue hole so again the whole seems to have Being claiming lives for a long time. It's pretty deep right here in the article is says that this guy Tarek Omar the person that recovers the bodies did a dive there and set a record of 209 meter dives 209 meters That's That's deep. What is that like 670 feet or something? Yeah, that is the 209 meters Which is you know, which is pretty extreme so over 150 divers have lost their lives in that blue hole It's often considered to be the most dangerous diving side in the world in the last 10 years earning the submarine Sink hole the ominous moniker diverse cemetery You can see their names inscribed in commemorative plates or plagues and bedding to a mountain front and the deadly By the deadly dive side so anyway a lot of people have died there over 150 You know David Shaw Which is the video that you recorded Woody for cave diver reacts Famously died at this site trying to recover a body at 270 meters. So he's a is a very very deep And it wasn't this it wasn't South Africa his his thing was in South Africa But holes like this have claimed lives of even expert divers like David show as you mentioned So you have some of the facts about this hole. Let's talk about how deep it is and where's the attraction? There's one particular thing that seems to be the one attracting the most people that perish at this site Well, I've been thinking about this Why is this particular blue hole? The deadliest why does it have such a high diver fatality rate and? Everybody has a different opinion on this by the way there's various explanations for its high accident rate But here's my take It was controlled first of all for a very long time by Israel. It was a very popular Taurus diving destination because it has extremely easy access Really easy to dive it's a shallow opening to the sea at 20 feet. It's pretty cool It's beautiful. It has a lot of coral. It has a lot of reef fish Free divers love it. So it's really easy to access with Basic scuba diving gear There's your problem what happens is that all of the sudden these scuba divers get into it and When they first go into it has a very little current So it's super easy super mellow dive site. They're like man, this is awesome But then they go down and they continue and they notice that it continued to go deeper and deeper They may either hear about or discover the famous arc the arc What the arc is is it's an arc. It's an entrance way to a cave That's what makes it a blue hole a blue hole by the way is an opening from the sea that Ultimately will lead down into a cave typically brackish or fresh water So they look beautiful by the way because they're just this big giant blue hole this void in the earth Okay, so now all of a sudden you've got these divers that I talked about that are not trained and Do not have the proper gear in this beautiful easy to access blue hole That decide to explore the arc because they can't really tell That easily how deep they are other than by looking at their computer They easily can get narked because listen to this The ceiling of the arc the arc starts at 181 feet and There is really good visibility So there's a good shot that they can see it if they're at a recreational depth limit of 130 feet and they look down They may see it and it's an attraction to go down there now. You're talking about a Sea floor where they walled this blue hole as a surrounding wall that drops down to 3,300 feet in depth Yikes, so that doesn't look very deep relative to the total depth so this draw of Of bringing all these recreational divers down into the arc Now they're at 181 feet so they're bent. They're they're narked They're definitely nark. They may not that say they're narked right but they're nark. They're unregular air and they're narked Now they're entering into an overhead environment that starts at 181 feet and There's your problem You're gonna the odds are you're gonna have a problem you're narked you're confused You may not have a backup light you may enter it with no light You may have gotten this blue hole with no lights whatsoever They can get lost in there quickly. They're confused immediately Panic sets in and they die Yeah, because in a pretty sunny day You don't it might not feel like you need a light you could probably see the arc all the way that it's shining Beautiful light that is a super clear blue hole with current moving in and out of it So it keeps it clear and by the way the currents another problem that could be a seek that is a C cave So you could have a title Current change in there which can siphon you further into the arc That's really dangerous, right? You know that a siphon means it's bringing you in so There's your problem you you know, unfortunately, it's not a cave site If it was just a cave site it would be great I have heard That since Egypt has taken over the Sinai that changed Israel gave that back to the Egyptians They now regulate this site that they're actually more strict with it that they will look at people's certifications and regulate who is going in and out of there as of recently because of these fatalities I don't know for sure though if they're really limited to people that are cave divers or people that have certain certifications that allow them to reach different depths But they are enforcing more regulations at the site that were not being enforced for sure Right, I have to tell you by the Israelis it was just if you go in there you're going in there at your own risk and it's not again Marked or known purely as a technical cave diving site. It's super easy to access right and Also the the interesting part about this whole that I noticed is that it doesn't only Makes a prone to accident for new divers So this is not one of those where we're like well if you're inexperienced if you're brand new you my drown No like one of the famous deaths at this site was Russian Israeli Diver and diving instructor actually he was a diving instructor Yuri Lipsy Yuri Lipsky Right so he went into this hole he was trying to do super deep dives He was warned not to do so, but I don't know if I never met Yuri obviously I can speak for himself, but I think that in a lot of cases what happens with instructors and stuff is Overconfident right you're sort of like I'm an instructor already. I got this. I don't have to be trained and I think for days The guy that we're talking about Omar For days he tried to convince him to get some training on deep diving Me, you know use mixed gases like if you're gonna go through the depth of the arch You know make sure that you know what you're doing and he was very reckless Yuri and he went into this site Filming with a camera mounted in his helmet and Basically filmed his own death, but he wasn't on mixed gas or technical dive gear Nope. Yeah, I mean this again. This is the problem. I mean, I'm reading some more information here Says since 1982 the blue haus become 1982 by the way is when Israel returned it to Egypt For peace for a peace settlement. So since 82 the blue auls become extremely busy with recreational divers and Is dived almost every day by recreational divers and that's fine except for the again that enables them to have access to non-recreational parts which is entered by this arc and I'm reading more commentary now and actually didn't even notice but that's that's part of the reason why they're saying also is that It's just got so many recreational divers go there and they go into that arc which is an extreme dive and many accidents and fatalities You know, I've happened right in that part. I mean, I think it'll be awesome for a try makes dive Right, by the way, they didn't even record all of the fatalities It's saying here that they don't even know truly how many there are It could be as many as a couple hundred so it's And and it includes some snorkeling deaths at the surface Unrelated unrelated to the diving are people are trying to set those free diving records So there's been some shallow water blackout stuff going on in there as well. So it's not just related to the dive community Yeah, I mean to be honest with you the site sounds pretty awesome For to go and just do re-breathers and deep diving That's that's the way I thought about it I think you will be interesting and humbling also to see all these plaques basically that are about people that the diet you know in this whole By the way, we should dive it Yes, but I want to talk about the other side of it. This is an absolutely awesome Technical dive site and it even goes on to say here. This is so let's talk about the positives. Yes It says by the way the arc presents little problem For suitably qualified technical divers The main challenge is gas management Because any lingering or errors at this depth plus a time needed to negotiate the horizontal section We'll need more than a single take a breathing gas to do safely if gas is not carefully planned The diver may lack sufficient air for the decostops or run out of air altogether So what it's saying there is hey if you're a technical diver It's not even that long of a horizontal section No problem. It's actually relatively easy It's a much easier site to dive even gust than the dive sites that we dive in Florida but Recreational divers are not going into Jenny Springs cave section right that's the difference or so really it's saying Yeah, it's got such huge notoriety and it attracts divers That are just not trained in so many of them that that's what's caused the problem But we absolutely should dive this especially on our rebreaters and especially And you should be a trained cave diver So not just that you're technically trained that you have sufficient gas But if you cross into that arc that's going to go into a Non-lite zone you really need to be a cave diver and then It's actually a relatively easy cave I guess I would call it a no More complicated cave than any of the other caves we dove It's reputation has nothing to do with the fact that it itself is like this crazy crazy dangerous site It's that people go in there without the attraining or even those that are our trained have pushed the limits to some crazy level Beyond anything we would do right we could do a normal toxic dive in there right Yep, and that's what the article says so it says despite having been demilitarized in the 60s Technical diving is still considered on extreme sport and so is cave diving in Egypt by the way To dive the blue hole you need to master both Deep diving and cave diving and nor moxic try mix right because you can't the deep dive You can't just go beyond the recreational level. That's that's what exactly because the entrance to the cave You need to be on helium or you are going to be Not dark out of your mind and that yep, so that So you got to be cave dive as you just said cave and at least mix gases This has to be awesome. I mean listen to this is an 80 meter wide and almost 100 meter deep opening Awesome the reef. I mean how awesome is that I mean awesome. I want to dive this sure. Yep. I should have drove it Earlier, but the blue hole is on every diver's bucket list Chris or clear minimal under tow waters which allow for good visibility even at great depth Which is probably why people see the arch and they're like it's not that far. It's right there Well, well, let me add to that comment you just made that's a really good point. You just made it actually says Time taken to pass through the arch may be underestimated The tunnel up here shorter than it actually is because of the clarity of the water to your point in my point The light at the outside end and the lack of reference points divers report that the tunnel appears to be less than 10 meters long But has been measured as 26 meters more over there is frequently a current flowing inward Through the arc into the blue hole that means it's a siphon yeah, so it takes you into it increasing the time it takes to swim Through and increasing gas consumption. So this again Yeah, it's part of the problem of why it's attracted non-trained divers exactly Let's see yeah, so I mean it goes on and on to discuss look if you just if you just see a swim through basically an arch or whatever that is 30 feet long So 10 meters and there's no current and all of that I take it that people that have done a ton of those swim throughs Would look at that and be like man, I can nail that it's so easy like I know it's deep But it how hard can it be and then it's not 10 meters, but it's 27 Which now you're looking at almost 90 feet instead of 30 and on top of that The current is keeping you back Which means that in order to move through the water now you have to work harder Which means you're breathing faster which means you're going through your air faster All of those are a combination of bad things to happen at that death Yes, and and so to chime into that it's it kind of goes further and this is such a great point that I'm reading on this one article It goes on to say because of all these things we're discussing Temptation to dive on a single gas tank is one of the largest Reasons why so many deaths have happened there theoretically the arch can be dived On a single 11 liter tank and often has been but and this is the problem Because you can do it it says but it's dangerously close to the minimum gas requirement for the dive And depends upon all of this going perfect you got to have a totally relaxed diver With a low gas consumption rate Committed to having no errors no Asitations during the entire dive and you're narked out of your mind Diving the arc without a stage tank a without rigorous gas planning Has resulted in drowning or DCS and remember you had to be able to do that calm Cool no errors while you're narked out of your mind you are going to be severely nark so Yeah, it looks amazing and the arc looks so benign. I mean they it's I'm looking at pictures of it It's like oh man no problem. I could swim right down to that and go in that arc. It's just right there It looks Like it's closed because you're looking at it relative to a 3000 foot Deep wall so another 40 feet down looks like nothing nothing though It's just the scale is amazing. Yep. Absolutely man It's that goes on to talk about Yuri the whole the notable depth of Yuri and how it happened the Russian is really diver And I know there's a whole video on that and now he had it really happened Yeah, I remember reading about this a long time ago and he was something like his BCD didn't work Yeah, it's uncontrolled descent Okay, so he had an uncontrolled descent he carried a video camera Which was on he filmed his depth death which the mom wanted it recovered and got it recovered Can you imagine she had to watch that film of her Sun's depth but death but that by having that it's the best known death because In the world because it was filmed Sadly the whole thing was filmed the video shows Yuri in an involuntary and An uncontrolled descent Eventually landing on the seafloor at 115 meters Where he then panics Removes his regulator because you're norked out of your mind you're not thinking anymore So at that depth you take your regulator out and try to fill your buoyancy compensator probably orally Right, he's removed his regulator so maybe he was trying to do an oral fill of it and um He was unable to rise at 115 meters He would have been subject to severe nitrogen narcosis Which may which I would say not may have I would say Inpaired his judgment induced hallucinations and caused panic and confusion Yuri Lipsky had a single tank assumed to be air At 115 meters uh That's 300 plus feet. I don't know you're just out you there's no way you could be thinking Um, they recovered his body The following day by Terek Omar One of the world's foremost deep water divers at the request of Lipsky's mother Omar had earlier twice worn Lipsky against attempting the dive He was told do not do this on the bottom Omar found Lipsky's helmet camera still intact the video it contained is available on YouTube and it's entitled fatal die accident Caught on tape and there's more and more commentary from Omar about Just about what we're saying it's not that complicated this one You know when I do a reaction to this video it's going to be a rather short video Which is great people won't have to go through a long video because it's that it's really summarized in this podcast If you need to know a dive site before you go in it a dive site that you just think is benign because it has easy access and looks beautiful But has a reputation like this Something must be there right some logical reason must exist for why so many people died You can't think that you can beat science We have done now a number of shows on this topic and a number of these react reaction videos as you call them on this topic That people for some reason think they can beat it or they're going to push the limit and I always keep saying to myself why What is the motivation? It's either ego to come back and be able to brag about it right that's a big that's a big draw like I just want to be able to say I did it And look at me yeah, which is deadly usually Or They're just trying to which I don't think this is not usually the case What is the what is the real limits of the body? Can we show that the body can really handle more than what has been stated my body can handle my body But that's the ego well Yeah, and I just think that this site is one of those sites that easily leads people to do that Because it's such easy access and it's a it's an absolutely gorgeous dive site It's awesome and for Gus We've got to dive this site. I don't want to I don't want people to think oh man Okay, this is one to stay away from no This is one to absolutely dive with proper training. I mean you technical divers out there with rebreather training with caved training Wow Talk about magnificent looks awesome. I mean we were in one dive. We're gonna get to experience incredible Ocean diving with gorgeous reef and an amazing cave system That I don't know I don't want to mistake this. I assume it's gonna turn brackish or fresh water So you know, that's the other thing I wonder Let's think about this for a second. I'm just talking out loud if this uri was originally waited for Sea water ocean water When he got into the cave which turns into brackish or fresh water You're way overweighted at that point Caves that are that C caves typically the salinity changes. That's true It's you're not gonna have the same level of salinity. So now all of the sudden he's With a giant camera Finds himself and during in the arc and not all of the sudden he's way overweighted And his bcd and we don't know this either wasn't working anymore or did not have enough lift power And he was an arc so he didn't ditch weights If he had ditched weights though think about this but let's say he ditched weights He gets out of the fresh water part of the cave Now at that 180 feet when he comes out of the arc he hits that hallowed climb Back to the saltwater level And starts flying to the surface blowing through decostops Air embolism he was doomed either way Yeah, so if we are doing this dive This is a question for us We need to make sure we have enough lift power To handle the weight that we're going to be using For the saltwater part when we then get into the fresh water part right and we train for that by the way as you know right That's why we don't take baby SMB's an SMB can be a massive additional ability to give you more lift so you you know even though you think you go into an okey on this one and why would I need an SMB There's a reason yep take more lift power on this site than you need I am by the way Talking out loud and having these thoughts live on our show as I'm looking at us Because I'm really thinking this out more of all these like why why would he have this uncontrollable descent And it's starting to make a little bit more sense to me as we Think about this incredibly cool dive site. Yeah, yeah for sure um Yeah, I feel bad of course, you know, the he died but of course again if you read a lot about it I remember reading that they just kept telling him like dude. This is not a one tank. Let me go in perfect and come out type of dive Um, but I think you're just going back to echo what you said about the whole getting knocked Everyone knows people that I don't get dark people right this like I you know what I don't get dark I've been down to 130 140 like I don't get knocked That I mean this past weekend I was down in Florida co-teaching an advanced nitroxan trimics class recreational trimics and nitrox class with Delgabersol and one of the the biggest things that we talked about is narcosis and how it affects everyone Everyone and you can now get immune to it no matter how much you dive You don't get used to it your body doesn't get you do not there's no scientific evidence Whatsoever that oh Being nark doesn't bother me because you're not absolutely doing anything when you're and Dog told told this story and I wish it was here to tell it but um I think it was in the galop I go to whatever it was that there was this guy on a dive side that Loved when he had people on the boat the the that said that they don't get knocked He loved that it's like oh, I got a I got it one of those guys that I don't get an art guy Okay, yeah with me like you and me and apparently they would go down to like 130 or whatever and I 130 or whatever there was a plaque for someone who died on that dive side and the You know the the bed was right before they went on the side it says look somebody died in this thing There's a plaque down there and he says something like in loving memory of whatever um Anyone who can remember what he said when we get back on the boat We'll we'll die for free today Like if you can remember without writing it down on a slate or whatever and cheating If you can go down there read the plaque and then come back up here and tell me what he says You you don't pay today That's how they did it and he said that 100% of people Fail the test yeah, and again, we're talking about the ones that are like I don't get knocked Well again, this plaque says like I was reading one right here says don't let fear stand in the way of your dreams That's what the plaque says and it is for a guy named James Paul Smith who died in 2003 So it would it would be something like that you have to go down there read what he says If you can remember that by the time we get back to the boat You know you can do yeah, and I want to I want to put it this in perspective because I've talked a lot about this in deep dive classes that I've taught What we do is we actually try to get people to experience a little bit of the feeling of being Narked in a deep dive class a recreational deep dive class to 130 feet I would tell you that the vast majority of people Will tell you that they don't feel Nark unless you give them a task to prove that they're Narked and I think this is important because There's a huge misconception about What it feels like to be Narked like this obvious feeling like oh man, I'm drunk now and now I can't think and it's so obvious that I'm Nark You see when you're Narked For me let me tell you what I feel like when I'm Nark I actually feel very little difference other than I'm super relaxed I'm not out of my mind because I'm not gonna let myself get that Nark I'm just more relaxed I feel even calmer and If I have to do something I kind of have to close my eyes for a second in my mask and concentrate For an extra few seconds before doing that task even something like Okay, I'm I'm gonna go back up now. I'm gonna let some air out of my BCD I have to like really really try my hardest to concentrate on it It's not obvious when you're Narked. It's not like I'm going from feeling normal to I'm oh man, I'm wasted. It doesn't it's not like that at all. So we get this mis Perception That people think they're not Narked and it doesn't affect me If you give them a task like I use that kids puzzle With the plastic pieces where you have to take the triangle and put it in the ball and match up the triangle And the square and the square and I time I'm doing it on the surface and then I time I'm doing it at 130 feet I've never had anybody that's not way slower At 130 feet and then they'll come back and say oh Now I know what the feeling is Well when you're diving if you have a complication or you have to do various tasks Which you certainly do in technical diving and you're Narked You're gonna You're in danger because you're you could Possibly not be able to do those things and I really hope that helps what I'm saying For all those that say that I'm not Narked because It's not obvious that you're Narked. I'm telling you right You may never you may have been Narked and never known you were Narked right that's the problem with Gas Narcosis and I think and I think the biggest misconception about Narcosis is that it's like being drunk It is it is not the same effect as being drunk. I think that when people say that What what really means is that like getting drunk? Narcosis is different for everyone It's this it follows the same principles when people some people get drunk with one beer some people get drunk with they have to drink a hundred beers Uh when some people get super dizzy sick. I have to throw up some people get happy some people get you know sleepy Matt whatever it is Different effects on different people and you never know what the effects are gonna be for you until you go through it Narcosis works pretty much the same way It affects people differently It affects people at different deaths like somebody at 80 might start feeling the effects of getting Narked But somebody might take a little bit deeper in order to feel the effects and the effects could be strong or Very low or whatever it is But everyone gets Narked just like everyone gets drunk. I mean if you drink enough You'll get drunk no matter who you are. Yes, but but the only difference about what you said I just want to be careful. Okay. I want to make sure they hear this is It's different than getting drunk because There are people that will drink one or two beers and not be drunk Right there is nobody That will reach a hundred thirty feet on air that will not be Nark 100% right of the human being unless you're not a human You are not right. It's a science I don't care who's out there who wants to post brag on my Facebook who wants to put in all those silly Other forums that I read and I don't I don't comment a lot because it's so ridiculous I don't get Narked till I get to 200 feet on air listen You're wrong. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't want to have discussion with you. It's black and white. It's not gray you're Narked Unlike some people that drink one or two or three beers are not drunk. They're not You are not at 130 feet on air and this story no matter who you are yeah in this world There's a really cool video I watched uh Of of a deep class Uh deep bar class on 230 or 40 meters for those of you outside of the US This instructor essentially the test is write your name backwards like he has this little no this is right your name backwards So people will take the slate out of cool and I gotta remember that and then he he starts like this guy named Victor He was recording it himself with his GoPro So you get his perspective like a student So he looks at the instructor's like write your name backwards So he pulls his slate and starts writing it and he's like COT no VT That's great and he does it like six times and then he's like thumbs up like Like and you know it'd be cool. I'm gonna use that. That's awesome And then what I would say to him is Now go on the surface. Yeah after the dives over Hey, by the way, write your name backwards and watch them just knock it right out. That's a great one I'm gonna use that in the future. Yeah, it was awesome. It was really cool. Now obviously if your name is I don't know Bob is easy Really cool. Yeah, but yeah, Bridget or you know something like that. Oh boy Yeah, it's got how often do you write your name backwards? So I think you have to think about it Like can you do it? Yeah, no matter what your name is. That's why I don't want him to I don't want him to do it on the surface first Now I actually want a surprise attack. I'm like you said At 130 feet and then later on the surface Have them do it and they're probably yeah, that's awesome Yeah, or maybe on the surface you do your last name so they don't repeat the same thing It's a different word, but still it's the same skill which is you have to think you have to Reverse the order. That's cool But anyway, I saw hopefully none of them listen to this show. It's really cool. It's our practicing I had a time No, this was I actually really wasn't sure if I was going to enjoy this show Because we're talking about one topic on one site again, right, but boy it really brings up so many great points and I really am glad That we're able you and I to have these kind of conversations, but you know We would not be able to have these conversations, Gus. I want you to realize this A year ago. I would not have been able to have these conversations with you right because until you have the training To know the difference to be able to analyze to say ah yeah Now I know why we have to do these things because the wise and the value of any instructor should be the most important thing Now I get it now. I know why so now I can look back on these situations And I can have an intelligent informed conversation with you. Yep about these topics Otherwise what happens is is it can turn into a silly argument from the uninformed Well, you know what I'm I'm I've been down 150 feet Woody and it's ridiculous. It's not a problem And you Not you but a person that hasn't had training tends to make those types of comments Easier quicker as a reaction and you can't really have a rational conversation back with them Because it's all emotion for them at that point and they don't have the training Like we're talking intelligently right based upon actual factual training So I'm really glad that we have that training because we wouldn't be able to analyze these types of things. Yeah for sure There's there's one more thing that I wanted to add and get your thoughts on as well is you know things that contribute to Narcosis like even though You as a person get an effect of Narcosis you could feel a different effect at another die Because there is some things that contribute to Narcosis like anxiety for example fatigue If you're super tired 130 swimming against the current versus drift diving you're sucking in more and more that nitrogen man exactly drugs Right alcohol cold That's right can't off getting cold your body is not circulating that blood nearly the same rate right even even psychologically Right like we said anxiety things like that they can mess you up and Cost you to whatever get get concerned breathe faster etc. And that's why I think You know through SSI for example agency that we teach for The whole comfort of repetition really helps because the more you practice something and the better you get at a skill the more comes out natural for sure Less the chance of you like getting Starralled and and like getting all concerned and you know nervous that I'm about to deploy my SMB Having done this in a long time. I don't know what to do like just take it easy. Yeah But did you notice the if you talk to really Well-trained technical divers They don't talk in this cocky way They actually would warn people not to do something like this. It's so funny how the best in the world in diving They don't they won't take those risks without properly planning Absolutely not so the greats aren't pushing the limits. It's the people that aren't Experience aren't trained that are pushing the limits that's right you listeners Doesn't that make you scratch your head and say maybe I shouldn't if the greatest of the great in diving are not doing it And are well trained for this stuff that they're not doing these types of dives without the proper equipment without the proper gas without the proper training Wouldn't you just logically say to yourself even if you don't believe it That there must be something to it if they aren't willing to do it Yeah, just I mean Lots these guys can do whatever they want they can do any dive. They want everyone else and they still don't and they don't do it without planning with the I just picture my cave and instructor Brian Kekka he's Unbelievably For every single dive he does in those abacus caves that he's dove thousands of times yeah the same dive he never Ever doesn't go through his estrials He never doesn't have the right amount of gas. He never doesn't have the right amount of line He never doesn't review those charts before he goes in You're talking about the greatest in the world Perhaps in cave diving yeah, so I think that's interesting Yeah, it is it is interesting for sure But yeah in regards to this site which is what the show is all about I will love to go Absolutely, we should go and dive it. There's a bunch of places in Egypt too and the Red Sea that will be awesome Just like not cave related, but just open ocean. Yes, we should live aboard something there are some great ones out there I think our dive shops actually running a trip There see ventures is running a trip to Egypt. I don't think it's not a technical depth. It's not a trip They would not be diving these so that's fine. That's okay. That's they're gonna They're not going to take you to places and and let you go into like this blue hole at those depths Because there's not gonna do it which is great, right, but there are technical Dives in Egypt as well and I believe they have all the Life shops. Yeah, sources and store benoxygen and helium that we would need yeah actually I think I saw I saw some some posts and stuff like that from people like trying to Get you know a shop there that is super rebreather friendly so they can be called one by the way I don't I don't know well Aaron from dirty doesn't is working with Oh, yeah, they're sure okay to set it up and then that would have it that would happen for sure So so I'm excited about that. We'll see when it happens But yeah, I mean it looks awesome the blue hauling beliefs also looks awesome But that one is not as deep and I guess not as deadly Because it's just a looks like a perfectly round hole Yeah, I know I don't think there's a transition with the fresh and salt there Another has to be a helicline level. Yeah, but to be able to hold I believe Don't kill don't shoot me out there everybody if I'm wrong on that. I think that You know, the knowledge is to be like that's not exactly That I could be wrong on that I'm gonna admit that right now fake news All right, well, that's that's pretty much what we wanted to talk about today guys. Thank you so much for tuning in We'll be back in a couple weeks. I want to record an episode about ice diving What he was ice diving as probably you know if you've listened to this show before I've never done it. Yeah, I've never done it here. Here's the thing like you went to it I had no interest in going ice diving right? I'm like okay looks cool Like after going diving in Iceland. I'm like next thing will be I guess diving on their ice Just because you know, I thought ice on was great Um and but then you went to do the class and man it's so much work It looks like a lot of work so I'm like now. I'm not interested now. I don't want to do ice diving But then you came and you're like that was the worst well I had will do a show will do a show and I'm gonna explain how It was an amazingly run class like one of the best run classes I've ever taken But it's really really harsh and hard work. I will explain all that goes in To do a 15 minute ice dive You're going to be out there from nine in the morning until four o'clock in the afternoon to do a 15 minute dive That's what the show will discuss. How could that be right? You're like what come on? I mean all out eight hours to Just wait. Yeah, no, I was talking to dog about to it some of the safety stuff that you have to think about I'm excited. I'm looking forward to to listen to the show but because you had I've certified now by the way. Yeah exactly crazy because all the people because you I want to be in 85 degree water all the time that is true But because you had such a horrible experience that's what I'm like and now I want to do it Well, I want to say it was that bad. I had a not I loved part of it No, the class was great, but the dive itself wasn't that great. It was harsh. I do I want to do that dive again No, no, it's brutal And I'll explain why but there are people by the way that love this stuff. Yeah, they absolutely like Woody That's not fair man. We love ice diving. Okay, and it's not for me, but I'll explain why but other people may love it Just like we love cave diving and other people are like no chance no interest. Yeah, I'm out Anyway, I'm looking forward to that episode but for now. Thank you so much for tuning in If you have any comments or questions for me or Woody you can always reach us at info at divetalkmedia.com But other than that save diving everyone save diving