title: Episode 32: Diving in ‘Cave Country’
author: DIVE TALK
contenttype: podcast
publication: DIVE TALK
published: 2021-04-09T12:00:00-04:00
sourceurl: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/divetalk/Episode_32.mp3?dest-id=1756346
word_count: 7831
Welcome everyone to yet another dive talk episode this time episode number 32 If this Sounds a little bit different is because we're one once again recording on the go or here in cave country taking a DPV class cave DPV class which will be Featuring in a future episode telling you what we think about it I don't want to say too much. We've had some interesting moments already in that class excellent instructor We'll say later who that is amazing instructor the students were Not excellent at all times. I will just put it that way that would be Gus and I but it's interesting because I think One of the things she said which I totally agree with is we may learn more from those mistakes We made today than anything else that will ever do for sure. We'll detail but let's not all of that Yes, but because it's very interesting the purpose of this episode is and you heard another voice is Is Joe Joe here, but Joe Kukose here absolutely His own very well known podcast which is pod diver radio the scuba cast there you go And we're here at the pod diver lodge in lovely high springs Florida And it's awesome by the way this lodge here the high spring accent I feel like You want to hear high springs accent Let me give it a shot up to this lodge because you said lodge and they obviously can't see it This place is completely set up from four scuba divers. We are pretty awesome five minutes For for for Cape divers were five minutes from Jenny Springs There's a middle area between all the little Homes that are set up on this land that is completely set up to lay out your gear wash your gear hang your gear Set up your gear. We've got picnic tables. We've got places to hang your hoses out there for those ccr divers electricity Charging stations me rinse bins I'm sure I'm leaving things out but it is it is created by Joe who said this is what I want for myself as a technical cave diver So it's perfect because where could be awesome if there was a place that had all of these things you did it for 21 years I've been driving down I 95 from New York to come cave diving here in cave country north Florida soon and I said every time I'm down here what would I want as a traveling cave diver when I came to someplace The set up my gear. I want a clean bed. I want a shower hot shower And I want a place for my gear That's it set it up And five minutes door to door from Jenny Springs and you can back your truck or van or car right up to this Middle area with all of these things and just unload and reload. It's fantastic down here in the south I call that a pole barn son Exactly. No, like you had me when when you were giving us that little tour and we checked in a few days ago And you were like and here in this section you can use all these rocks to practice line drills and stuff and I'm like well Oh, yeah, if you've got to talk about the I had the build we Started doing landscaping here a limestone rock garden for practicing line drills. Yeah, and those are huge rocks We were wondering how you got those in here. Oh, they had a guys with backos and stuff putting that stuff in here Oh, yeah, no, but that's that's legit. But anyway So welcome Joe to the show but the one thing I wanted to talk about is What it is like diving in cave country? Um, while we were talking a little bit about I've been doing this since I was a kid diving has been always my passion I was 16 years old when I got certified but even before that I was 12 years old on the Jersey Shore mask fins historical in a pole spear shooting fish and My earliest memories are like watching Jacoosteau and see hunt and all that stuff and just was fascinated Being a city kid from norc new jersey Going down to the jersey shore That was like it for me and when I got certified at 16, you know Obviously the thing in New Jersey in New York is shipwrecks and that's where I started diving I got cave certified It was almost like just a bucket list thing back in 2000 2001 with turns tisel And I was tech diving but this was I was just check the box do the cave diving thing. It's fun I just got Totally enthralled with the idea of going into underwater caves and seeing wet rocks. It's just for some reason As a form of diving it's um and we were talking before about like brine cake cook And you know there's something about cave diving and what it I don't know it's sort of the challenge that it does to you as a diver I think it has to be perfect. I think it's another level. Yeah Maybe I mean we just had a conversation you and I Joe and Gus was involved in as well it's Maybe the attraction it's not going in and just seeing the wet rocks. It's going in and saying I really had to plan Extremely carefully with my gear with my buddy with my air planning To make this work and the fact that we can and we have that skill is a skill that you want to use and stay proficient at Because it's not easy to get that skill. I told you I got certified with brine cake cook for 11 days and it takes a special level of diver I Has it take to do it, but I'm going to throw it out there maybe if there was a black belt of diving Maybe cave divers For technical diving it are that it just takes a different level of skill Then it does to be in a non overhead environment Because you can't come up. So for me, I think the attraction it sounds like you were saying that is that We've developed this skill. It's very hard to develop this skill We've invested a lot of money in very technical equipment So we want to continue to use it and we want to be proficient in it And that in itself is an attraction to go into the cave. I think using the martial arts analogy too Because you know you could say you could be a black belt Giu-jitsu or taikwondo or whatever um I took kendo for a while and And kendo it's japanese swordsmanship and There's a certain sense where you have you and your sword There's a you actually even before class will meditate sitting at your shinii looking at it and there's a whole thing I think the thing in cave diving As a form of diving like any kind of technical diving whether it's deep Trimax shipwreck diving or cave diving You have to become one with your gear to you know in a sort of zen fashion true and Then I think of my routine now a living here in cave country and setting up you know I'm going cave diving five times a week now and this is wow life is great I have no complaints there But I'll spend you know like an hour and a half You know man just like where are you joe? Over my work shed sent my gear and just going through it the process putting my gear together I go I do my dive I come back. I take my gear apart. I check everything There's that becoming one with your gear It's almost as important as the dive itself That's a great. So it's like this whole process the dive doesn't happen when I just like the send down the eye at jinnie it's The process is starting the night before when I'm when I'm analyzing my gas and my tanks It's all part of the the dive or the process. Yeah, that's right and being an engineer by trade and profession it's I'm trying to find the words for this I love the diving but I also love the gear and because it's enabled me to Get into a place and we were talking about this before out in the pole barn You know we get to see something that most human beings don't get to see Whether it's deep shipwrecks or underwater caves You know this is something that for most people is You know Something they will watch on television not something they get to do. Yeah, they'll never do it And you were talking earlier about diving with Brian I was telling you about how about 12 years ago. I was down there diving He just found that that crystal room And after a week of diving with him he said joe I think you got the skills and he took me to that room And I think him I forget who I think it was Steve Gerard might be Brian if it's somebody else and Correct me later, but you had just discovered that room wow So I wasn't like the for I wasn't like Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin But I was sort of like the third person in the world to see that particular part of the cave. I've heard a special moment You know, I'm so Not saying that you know some special cave diver Brian obviously is one of the world's greatest Diverse cave divers and his found amazing amazing things But to be part of that sort of Club. Yeah, it's just really cool Absolutely, I agree and I I agree with with your approach to cave diving because I very much identify with the same thing You know when I was learning how to fly I you know every year I try to learn like something new a new skill to master and diving was one year that I did that But in another year I wanted to learn how to fly planes and my instructor Mike he was great because he always told me he's like You know how people say that they enjoy flying because he makes him feel They it makes him feel free and like a bird and he's so You know poetic and I don't feel like that at all. I feel like I'm operating a machine in the sky That's how I feel and I fell the same way and when I'm cave diving is the same Like the gear to me and being able to be proficient at an operating it that allows me to go Feeding side on the water cave That's that attracts me the most that to see You know a place and not a whole lot of people see that's also special But to me the gear itself as an engineer too is the coolest thing Yeah, no end of it. We're geeks right right But this is what I like to play with toys. This is all part of why we want to go see the wet rocks Yes, that's gets back. I'm circling back to the very first comment because I've get asked that a lot I mean what's down there? You're looking at some sand and some walls with different minerals that different formations How many times can you Want to go see the same thing this comes up as a question and I'm like, you know As much as I can because it's the entire experience that you just described That you just described it's not just the moment that you're underwater in your gear Right and also I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this Maybe other cave divers also can relate to it When you're down there and you're in the cave You've gotten through the beginning your lines are in now you're in your zen moment right everything smoothed out And you're just relaxing and going through the cave You forget that you're underwater It starts to become a feeling as if I'm just in a cave but I'm not Relating in my mind or I'm underwater if you truly become one with your gear It starts to feel like part of you. I'm just part of I'm just swimming I'm not consciously saying oh my goodness. I'm underwater Yeah, and I'm breathing inside the earth. It just goes away. It kind of like You forget about that the gear and the oneness with that is enabling us to do that That's incredible that man has developed gear to allow us to be able to safely Go into this underwater environment that you can't come up from And almost forget that you're underwater. It's incredible And it's funny how how we grow Kind of I don't know if immune is the right word but we we grow accustomed to Like if you think about and we were talking about being instructors early as well because you Joe are also an instructor How you know new people are excited to learn about diving and all of that You know, I remember when making it to a hundred feet was like wow like I'm so deep. I'm out a hundred feet today We were a hundred feet 1800 feet from inside the cave out a hundred feet And it's just so normal and so awesome to be able to do that So I do agree with you when he comes to the whole comment about the black belt of diving is When you make it to that level, this is all awesome and not so much like it's scary that I'm a hundred feet on the water No, it's it's great. It's like you get accustomed to it But we could get some feedback that hey you guys are holding yourself out to be the most elite best divers in the world I don't think that's true. I think we've seen those comments on YouTube by the way It's just that once you do go through a cave class and once you do experience it It will change you as a diver Yes, do you I try to I think I think it's called the Dunin Kruger effect the Dunin Kruger effect I heard that before. Okay, and It's a And obviously it's that we have the internet so people can check me on this It's a it's a psychological thing that people who get into something In the beginning of it think they're way more expert at it Than they are. Yeah, so sure and then when they get to learn a little bit more they realize how much they don't know That is amazingly true And the thing about becoming a cave diver You realize in diving how much you don't know Man is that true. You know and the irony of it is is like you know the person at the you know They did their discover scuba course and they got their like resort certification go Oh you guys you cave divers The the the the and I'm like you don't realize we know how much we don't know Yeah, and that's the thing is a lot of newbie divers Yeah, and I you see this a lot of Ginny with open water divers and I listen I have total respect for anybody. I love diving. I you know if it's diving a reef at 20 feet It's still a better day than being at work. No, right? I have no problem with that true But I've seen like people like and I'm not Criticizing but I've seen like open water instructors at Ginny Springs, you know like those cave divers think they own the cave And it's not that it's just that we know stuff that you don't know right and It's actually When you get to this point you realize how much more there is to know So like the stuff you're doing with your DPV class and when you're gonna talk about that later Humble your you know you're thinking like oh, it's a it's a scooter. I'm gonna like scooter around the cave Press go and yeah, and then you realize okay, I want you to do that and I want you to do a jump line And I want you to put a cookie on it and then we're gonna have a drill and he's gonna be at an air or he's his breath is gonna Broke you're gonna have to now tow him and your man light is broken. Yes, and the scooter is broken It's and navigate through a restriction Okay, very tough go that's right. Yeah, and it's not that you know and like I said when my cave instructor turns I think I died nine times and my basic cave training Oh, yeah, yeah, I definitely had some deaths Yeah, and you were talking about like you and and Brian how he like you know like oh no you didn't do it you didn't make it No, yeah, he's like you died. Yeah, or you killed me or you killed me which is evil yeah, so It's not about like and I got to say with doing with my podcast and writing for dive magazines The best part of is being a journeyman tech diver is I got to meet some of the best divers in the world Whether it's Brian or Ed Sorenson or Jill Heinhearth or Tury Tysle or some of the greatest scientists like the late Dr. Richard van I got to interview him a bunch of times some of these Amazing heroes and even your community around here some of these local cave instructors that are teaching it every day are Absolutely some of the best I was their legends. I mean you're North Star Cape country Apps James they're Unbelievable they're every day teachers are living legends. They are actually still live They don't they may not even know they are yeah, that's what's even cooler Yeah, and I and I've told Woody this I said you know if you play any other sport like you You can't just go and practice tennis with Roger Federer You can go play golf with Tiger Woods You can't take training from Liberian James, but you can come and learn from legends. I actually do that Yes Like Woody that got his certification from Brian K. Cogg who's arguably the best diver in the world Unbelievable overall overall yeah best diver in the world And we are very blessed that we have you know you're gonna get stuff You know you're gonna get internet comments about different skills my instructor That's the guy cave instructor said and there are some many Jimmy Bob Billy Jimmy Bully Bob. Yeah, but there's many great and some people are the best in the world at certain skills Within cave diving so you know it's yes, we're just been lucky like you said you're to be around Just some unbelievably incredible people but you get to learn from amazing people But what's interesting is we're here really we're at all started didn't it wasn't cave diving invented here Okay, um, I'm not the official historian for diving, but uh, the best we can do the best I can do at this moment I do actually have a degree in history so but This is comes from years of just being in the sport and talking with people from my understanding In Florida cave diving the technical technical diving started we're talking about we were talking a little bit about this before Back in the like 80s When I started getting into like shipwreck diving in New Jersey in New York We started doing you know, we're doing decompression We started using that voodoo gas of nitrox and sometimes even helium Helium mixtures. Ooh right yeah Billy Deans was doing that kind of same stuff at a key west for deep shipwrecks in warm water But then you had north florida with These cave divers who were scuba divers think about this they were scuba divers There was no such thing as caves diving But there were these springs and what's what's beyond that next wet wet rock So they had a learn caving techniques and create them these are guys like check xley and Lamar hires and those those old timers Old timers Sh me and Lamar the same age So those guys like you know and Started creating the sport of cave diving while up in the northeast. We were creating the sport of wreck diving at the same time you had Martin far and his group over in England and they were dry cavers and they got to a sump and they're like What's on the other side of this water? So they had a developed technique. So you had florida cave diving which became sort of You know Those guys will also went to mexico and the rear of my and stuff right and you had the same time You had what was going on with those cake dry cavers in in the UK And you had at the same time up in the northeast you had these tech divers Or i think it was my kumuludu actually coined the term technical diving But they're all these were happening concurrently and i just showed you an article I did for skin diver back in 2000 at the nowy tech diving conference And that's kind of like when it started all coming together because One of the things they learned at that conference and this is 21 years ago But we're still learning it today was When the navy and this is going back into the fifties when they were starting to experiment with With deeper with well they were doing helium diving and things like that But one of the things was for example What had when did those deaths start happening it was on gas switches because they would switch the wrong gas The p0 2 would be too high they would tox out or something yeah Well the navy figured all that stuff out in the fifties And then commercial diving the in the oil patch and down in in the gulf They were doing deep dives and in the north sea and when did people start dying on gas switches Well, they didn't communicate they in their industry they communicated that but then Technical diving started happening in the 80s right So and this happened to a couple divers we knew up in the new jersey when did their When did the death happen when they switched to a high p0 2 gas and tox out and on the gas switch and This is when the internet was new when people starting to communicate And what ended up happening was wow you did that happened to you So this was a sharing of information And you had jersey, you know, northeast wreck divers deep wreck divers And the two different cave diving communities because you had the DIR folks and the and the sort of the the traditional cave divers that they were communicating So at that conference you had Georgia Irvine and Jarrod Gibonsky with our holocola project You had Tari Tyson with the Cambrian Foundation You had Bill Hamilton who cut a lot of those commercial dive tables in the 60s and 70s It Bruce Wenke from Los Alamos National Laboratories of slagents you had all these and that's when this communication started in technical diving I think what was great about that is and The there's goods and bad the good is we're exchanging information That's what these podcasts that you do and I do are about impact This is just about getting information about our sport to other divers. That's right And we're sharing a perspective. It may not be the only perspective get all the perspectives get all the information you can But at the same time Ego's come into play and everyone says well my wave diving is the best way of diving and you know a great way of diving But you know what there's other ways to do there's five ways to skin a cat And this is I don't want to offend anybody in pedo but that you know But so I just kind of think the way we've moved we're moving forward and you know with these communication technologies like podcasting And it could you know the scuba board and you know we you know if Facebook is used for you know Sharing ideas and pictures. We're just talking about Marissa's photos that she shares on Facebook. We're just amazing amazing I just think you know we are moving sort of that sort of the history and backstory how we got to today And like I said the more I get into it the more I realize how much I don't know and how much I want to learn so Um, that's a great thing about about the about our sport. Yeah, I think that's part that gets gets back the very beginning of this conversation that I think When you really boil down to what is so attractive That's it that there's just a it's a continual learning process. It's a journey that never ends its exploration. It's adventurous. It's technical gear and I haven't found anything a stimulating overall mentally physically as cave diving Okay, so the the people that listen to the show obviously they come from all walks of life and they have all kinds of different experiences If they will like to experience this let's start from someone who is not a cave diver who will like to come to cave country and kind of have like an intro to cave obviously not cave diving you shouldn't go cave diving if you're not trained but besides I don't know the Baltimore not Ginny which we can talk about what else would you recommend someone listening to this and I don't know let's say Houston says I want I'm just gonna go to cave country and experience this thing Let's let's back up from this Gus because we're both we're open-order structures and I don't want to teach cave diving right cave diving but I don't want to teach it because yeah But I love teaching open water because I love bringing new people to sport Whether those people and I'm I'm working with some people now who want to get to cave diving I taught them open water. Yeah, and I said Let's we're doing a dive down Stewart next weekend. We're gonna do some ocean diving That's great. I want I'm so excited. They're excited about it But the same token become a good diver first for sure and when I tell you don't have to get into technical diving All the only kind of diving you want to do is see beautiful fish on a reef at 35 feet. That's amazing. That's great um, I always need this is my personal kind of person I am I always need to push my own personal limits. Yeah, right? So the kind of diving that I was doing when I was 16 off of an inlet and 20 feet of water in New Jersey Obviously, I'm pushing that constant that that edge constant from that. Yeah, not that I still love to do that but personally I I'm that kind of person you don't have to be that kind of person you could be a person who just wants a communion with nature Who just wants to go underwater see pretty fish and that's cool If you do want to get into cave diving obviously be comfortable diving has to be the actual physical act of diving breathing underwater has to be second nature to you Yeah, I'm talking about you're in the cave. You don't even realize you're underwater anymore because we're so accustomed to that environment But I would say um That if you want to come down and just experience like what it's like there's plenty I mean north florida cave country we call it cave country north florida film that whole thing from actually from williston Up through gains fill up through the panhandle. Yeah, that area is from a geological perspective And you talk to somebody like Jerry Murphy over at cave country die shop. He's a geologist he teaches at uf He'll explain all that to you But for geological reasons it's a cave diving mech. That's why we have people coming from russia and Korea and germany to go cave diving here, right? But there are some places for open water divers. So it's blue grotto. There's devils then Where as an open water diver they're technically cavern zones, but you can experience what it's like And I told you that's how I took my two new open water students. Yeah, I took them to a blue grotto Which is it's a big cavern And there's a big rope and you go and they said this is what cave diamonds like and said yes sort of and they're like Oh, we got to do this. This is great. This is like this So that's a way to experience it locally here in cave in north florida cave country I think there's also mine diving the bontair mine Over in was that Missouri I haven't been there yet. I knew I met a guy in the keys who actually ran it But he always said gotta come up someday and I'm It's on my bucket list. Yeah, no guide you through so you're always gonna be with somebody who's very familiar with it But there is a actually a there's a royal springs up here There's a big cavern zone there. That's a great place also do open water teaching here There are places here that besides the jini ballroom, right? You can go and do quote-unquote open water diving in a sort of a cavern zone area Yeah, I like the jini ballroom just because you have the the Constant current oh the flow there the flow there's no way you can get stuck in there a little to spit you out exactly So the flow the jini because there's no flow of blu-grato or devils then or any of these places I enjoy the ballroom because of that. I think you get to experience going all the way down to like the great or whatever and holding on from that and Feeling the flow trying to spit you out really because that's the kind of flow that we swim against when we're going into a cave. Oh Yeah pulling glide is definitely correct unless you're using a scooter But but also in the ballroom a jini there's a section on the left that's like a little restriction It feels like the lips like if you're going to the lips and technically that's a cave zone because you can't see light from there So what I want to add for this I was good then I saw free divers going into that restriction I was like whoa, but what I want to add and I think it's very important is that If you want to experience this do not under any circumstances attempt to experience it on your own. Oh, yeah that so We're enticing you we're telling you how amazing it is, but it is a tremendous amount of technical dive gear dive skill training You can die easily in a cave easily Deceptively easy way to die. Yes, so don't test it test it the way Joe said go in a Recreational friendly cavern which happens to be blue grotto Or absolutely only go with other trained professionals and never attempt this on your own. I'm actually also going to say find a Certified or or trained guide or instructor Yeah, we talk about that a lot and people like oh, you know I learned to dive We were talking about back in the day. It was like here's a card. Go diving and just You know, when you're 16 17 years old you're just you think you're you know mortal anyway So you just doing crazy stuff anyway and hopefully you survive That's and I think about that learning curve and how hard it took to get to certain points Which I could have got a lot faster if there was training And I'll bring this back to just like 12 years ago. I started side-bounding about 12 14 years ago And I remember maybe that's maybe longer now. I bought my first side route rig from got it from dive right I think it was a first generation nomad I went into Ginny hooked up and I just hated it. I said this has got to be the worst way to dive ever I tried it a second time and this is crap. I'm going back to doubles I spoke to Jill Heinerth. They said Jill this thought it was you know what let's do a course. I did my course Now I'm a advanced tri-mix diver CCR diver You know cave full cave diver. I'm doing a core another course. Yeah, right. So I did another course with Jill two days in the kid I let's had everything tweaked tuned It was well worth the cost of the course so no matter how much training experience Thousands of dives you got under your belt. It's always good to learn more and we talked about that I have 7,000 dives under my belt if not more And I'm training and being humbled right now practicing live on this dpv cave training Right, I mean we were talking about drills and stuff about can that be you already are a cave a trained cave diver Now you're just adding something that pulls you through Man, you need the training for every tool that you add tough. It's interesting um We love diving that's the theme of of this so any kind of diving that you're doing is great Our show is called dive talk but I think that when you're here and you're living in the moment among this world here in cave country It's it's a magnet. It's extremely addicting. I can tell you this I never thought and when when Doug ever saw said to me look I I know you've said it a number of times what do you that look you always want to be in the gorgeous blue green ocean just look at pretty fish and so forth You may just fall in love with cave diving. I'm like I don't think I ever will And just again it it lowers you in it's the overall experience and frankly I think we're Craving coming here lately more than open water diving for sure. It's very very addicting Really is it's something very unique about it and you're going to meet Some in joe we met you because of cave diving if if we if we were not in cave diving yeah There's no way we meet you now look at the history and the knowledge that you've just told us over the past couple of hours not just on the show and Wow, I mean it really leads you to some of the most worlds famous divers you are You've got articles. You're super well known in the cave community. No, I just don't have this well known I'm just a I'm just a a schlock writer of dive articles You're a humble, but you know It's enabled us to meet some pretty special people guys absolutely and that's all because of cave diving absolutely Um, and I think you know cave diving continues to become more popular and more popular but you do We were talking earlier today how I guess the when something becomes a little bit mainstream then stars to lose Some of the quality and we were talking about for example cave etiquette and things like that Which could be a whole now the topic for another episode I've actually have an episode planned on my podcast about that with territisle Because that is actually so you know We talk about learning and constantly learning sometimes we have to relearn things We talked about like you know one of the safety rules is exiting cave divers out of the right away And you're seeing that a lot now I don't that now we're going to start looking it's not necessarily a negative thing because it is becoming more popular Just like in anything else you have to remember the fundamentals first one of the fundamentals of Is we're all sharing these caves and I think that's something we should talk about too that from an environmental perspective Divers have always been these people who have been sort of ambassadors of our aquatic world Right so we're something greater than ourselves in our hobby And it's like oh seeing this cool stuff and like oh look how cool we are We're ambassadors so When jacuzzo was doing all this stuff and we were seeing like wow this there's not just this blue Water there's all this life under there right and people started caring about it Um and like with the Florida aquifer a care in cave country right this is the fresh water system for millions and millions of people Right and when we dive into these underwater caves we're seeing that So when people just like yeah, they're changing royal and they just dump their royal into the We see the effects of what that does and I think from a greater standpoint We can be ambassadors to not just the rest of the diving community, but non-divers as well as what we've seen And um, you know, I don't know get off my soapbox on that one, but it's just that it's and that's one of the great things We get to do it's a privilege to be a cave diver And that is a big part of the training is we don't want to damage that very sensitive special environment Oh, yeah, and it's it's hard It's very difficult to dive through these caves so that you don't damage them But there's a very difficult skill But it's a pretty important environment so yeah Now you live here basically so and you dive you said five days a week at this point I am I might have to go back to New York to work on some projects You know got to still make money. We're trying to do it with the pod diver lodge, but you know Just more people come and stay. It'll be I hope so yeah, I hope so but not When we want to come right? Well, we're actually thinking we're actually thinking of getting another place up by a peacock so Interesting But you know since you since you're familiar with the area and you dive here a lot Do you have any favorite places that or favorite dives that you like to do? I love a little river, but I gotta tell you Me too. That's what he's favorite. That's my favorite cave around here, but I gotta tell you something Um, we have so much in common every time you say something. I'm like I agree. So I agree with you my brother from another mother Exactly even teaching philosophy. So it's really weird. Okay, so anyway, go ahead Um, but I'm gonna tell you I used to say like my students like open water students like my favorite place I've dove all around the world only continent is not Antarctica and that's still my bucket list but Where's your favorite place to dive Jersey shipwrecks? Um, and this is gonna sound funny my favorite place to cave dive down here is Ginny I've got a season pass there. So I'm five minutes door to door I can if I just want to just do like a simple short 45 minute dive. I just throw a gear down. Digest go But since I've been diving like I'm gonna do this the last past couple weeks I've been just exploring Hill 400 Right the double lines going up to Sherwood split But all these little cracks and crevices that normally I'm gonna do the bat circuit I'm a swamp that a bat so I'm gonna cut back down to roller coaster No, I'm exploring stuff that normally you just swim down the line and just swim past it keep going and now I'm looking at like little rooms and little crevices and stuff that like oh what's down this little hole that I I've always swam past never gone into it and So that's my favorite thing to do right now is like just explore Circuits and stuff. I've done a Ginny a hundred times But now I can Really really look at it does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, that's pretty neat Because normally I'm just following a line and going you know doing jumps Yeah, now I'm actually like exploring Where I've been before and actually seeing it like for the first time take a second to yeah to to admire I think until recently and it's funny that both of you like little river Because until recently I always saw woody like I cannot believe that people's Favorite cave is not peacock. I think peacock is it's awesome because it's shallow You can be there forever never get deco Anyway, I love peacock right, but I think now I think any cave that allows me to use the DP is my favorite I feel At a such another level of experience you can enjoy it so much more when I'm not trying to Like pull and pull and try to see where's the next grip like I feel like I'm climbing sideways Inside like on the water like a little river for example It sometimes the flow is so ridiculous that you can't glide you can glide you have to pull and pull So I'm not enjoying 90% of the cave because I'm so focused on inching forward. I think little rivers and ec is for DPV diving is is great That's like especially the the first entrance we do not sort of like corks I feel like right now any cave that allows DPV which peacock doesn't Um is my favorite so now by default peacock is my least favorite cave Just because DPV diving is you can be like the guy in the scooter at Walmart Maybe get away kids. I mean it turned into a little bit of a cave dive show But I think for those listening that are in the scuba diving man You could do this forever the learning never ends whatever level you're at it can go forever and ever and ever and I don't know there's not many I've said this earlier. There's just nothing else that I've done that Has that many different levels of learning continuous always for the rest of your life There's always more maybe that's the real addiction maybe that Bringing this show kind of winding it down is the answer to Why we are so intrigued right now of if you want to call it looking at wet rocks. Yeah, that's why absolutely and and you know to get back Also to diving around this area 365 days a year there's no you know five foot waves the small craft advisory nothing like that Very commercial very nice to come and the water's always same and where should they say let's give a shout out more time I don't know where you are I mentioned where they should stay the pod diver lodge How do they book it? Um, they can book it. I know we're on air You know Amanda my wife does all that stuff, but I know we're on air bnb But you can book it directly by going to pod diver lodge that's L-O-D-G-E Dot com and You know to shoot Amanda an email You can always shoot me an email at poddivertgmail.com But get it to Amanda and she'll take care of it and You can rent the house you can rent rooms You know if you're just one diver we have a we call it little river which is the single room That's right We got three rooms one is has its own private bathroom That's that's a that's jenny and then there's peacock which is the twin beds and then there's little river Which is that little small room in the back there, but if you're just one diver It's perfect And uh got cave maps here also talk about physical fitness. I've got the gravity gym out back I saw a little gym. Yeah, we got the dip bars and the pull up bars and start but uh I saw it From the business we're getting our physical fitness in So yeah There and you know you can just go to our website which is poddiver.org and All that information there as well. Yes, sir. It was so nice. We made this fire on the fire pin We're just sitting there just talking because we finished early like a two thirty or three It was awesome and we grill some hot dogs and whatnot. It was it was awesome. Yeah, great environment. Well Joe So good. It's for hey guys. Thanks for coming. Uh, you know, uh, you know, I'm glad I'm glad you're almost finished with your class. Yes, knock on sheet metal here that you'll actually pass tomorrow Because I tell you marissa won't just pass you just because you paid for the class. Yeah, no, it's all we have to it We have to Absolutely. Thanks for sure. Well, we don't deserve to absolutely yeah, and thank you everyone for for tuning in to this episode of the dive talk podcast if you have any comments for Joe or Woody or myself You can go ahead and leave him on the On the podcast page at divetalkmedia.com or you can send us an email info at divetalkmedia.com But other than that, thank you so much for tuning in save diving