Chapter Five: The Heart

title: Chapter Five: The Heart
author: Caliphate
contenttype: podcast
publication: Caliphate
published: 2018-05-17T15:45:00-04:00
sourceurl: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/pfx.vpixl.com/6qj4J/nyt.simplecastaudio.com/4bcf9c0c-53cf-4055-9873-1c15d39d0d33/episodes/da5eda28-11b9-419c-bca9-2d49332419a0/audio/128/default.mp3?aid=rss_feed&awCollectionId=4bcf9c0c-53cf-4055-9873-1c15d39d0d33&awEpisodeId=da5eda28-11b9-419c-bca9-2d49332419a0&feed=uUplVtAS

word_count: 3232

The early chapters of this series focus on a man we refer to as Abu Hus-Safa al-Khanadi, who claimed to be a member of ISIS and said he had committed multiple murders while in the Islamic State. In several episodes of this series, we documented his story, as well as our efforts to verify aspects of it. In September of 2020, two and a half years after this podcast was released, the Canadian police arrested Hus-Safa, whose real name is Shairo's Choundry, and charged him with perpetrating a hoax. That charge led the times to conduct its own investigation, which found a history of misrepresentations by Choundry, and no corroboration that he committed the atrocities he described in the Caliphate podcast. As a result, the times has concluded that the episodes of Caliphate that presented Choundry's claims did not meet our standards for accuracy. In this feed, we've published a conversation with the executive editor of the Times, Dean Bakeh, where he discusses the original reporting in Caliphate and what the times has found in its re-examination of the story. On July 4, 2014, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the Islamic State, arrives in Western Moussle in a convoy of cars in great secrecy. I remember residents telling me that all of the streets were roped off suddenly, they didn't know why. He walks into the historic al-Murray mosque, a famous mosque in Western Moussle. The mosque is full because it's Friday and the congregation is waiting for the Friday sermon. And then, Baghdadi ascends the pedestal to a little podium. He approaches the microphone. And he declares the Caliphate. This is what Al-Qaeda had planned for years and had never succeeded in doing. In this moment on this day, I sistered it. Wait a minute, I forgot to ask you. The day when the one Baghdadi stood at the pulpit at the mosque in Moussle and announced the Caliphate, where were you? I was in Syria at home. In what city? I was in Manbij. And do you remember that day? Yes, there were a lot of celebrations that day. The celebrators, throughout the night, they just would have sweet-handed out food, free food, restaurants were beginning a free food. They'd be hugging each other. The ISIS fighters themselves would be in the city, gloating about their victories and everything and how they helped create this stream. Chapter 5. The Heart. So, Rafmiini, this is the dream, the arrival at long last of the state. Right. I mean, this dream of an Islamic homeland is what is responsible in a way for bringing in people from all across the world. 40,000 ended up flooding through the doors of the Caliphate to join ISIS, to join this community, and to help build this Islamic promise land. Okay, I guess we'll start from here. These are the Syrian ones. You took these yourself? Yeah, this was on the Euphrates. Edge of the Euphrates. Who are those guys? These guys are all Euphrates. Yeah, fellow fighters. They're police officers with us. This guy was from what's it called, Finland. Finland. These guys were local Tunisians. That's where you clipped out. That's like the beach edge. So, see, guys, you're like swimming around playing at the beach on your day off. Is that what it is? Yeah. We're just chilling. This is the one I have a video of me. That's you? Yeah. What are you doing? Just firing up on. Is that your clock? Yeah, that's my personal blow. Let me see if I record it. And I slowed it down to just perfect. And who's shooting this video of you shooting again until you've released? Oh, that's a buddy of mine who's videoing me and then that's me. Oh, that was this? Oh, they're just, they're having, they're not throwing a dead body. They're not throwing it up on your case. That's a friend and they're throwing him into the water. Okay, God. And this was one of my other pictures that I took. That's me. That's you? And yeah, that's Moneeb. Oh, wow, that's beautiful. Thank you. Did you see that? I think he died. He went to the front lines and I haven't heard from him after that. I could tell maybe he wasn't going to come back. He wasn't cut out for that. Did you keep it that you had some for a while? No, no. This is why I kept telling you like I missed him so much. I literally had to cut everything off. Yeah. But couldn't even say goodbye to them. So at a certain point, you decided that you want to quit? Yeah. Can you, was there one moment or a series of moments? The second time I did the kill, I killed someone. This guy was a drug dealer. I had to stab him in the heart. Why did you have to do that? That's his punishment. And why were you chosen to do this? It's, I was just about ready to go to RIS. They needed me and they were kind of preparing me. So I was due to go into that training a couple of weeks from that time. They just had to vet me one more time. People watching? Yeah, including my superiors and other fighters and locals. Who else was there watching? There'd be other hispas like new guys, regular streets people would watch. A lot of kids watch. How old was your father? I think he's 30 something in his 30s. He was wearing orange jumpsuit, slay beard, cut face, like square. He was blindfolded. It was like a black leather rubbery type blindfold. We tied his hands with this wire thing. Did you mask your face? Yeah, I did. I had masked my face. Did it help to have that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. No one could see your face. It helped a lot. There, the guy just talks to the crowd, addresses them. What's about to happen? I'm just trying to build up the courage to do it. After that, I stabbed him. The blood was just warm. And it sprayed everywhere. And the guy cried. It was crying and screaming. He did not die after the first time. The second time he saw a heat, probably just flunched over. Those. What did you put in the night? You just had to eat. It's hard. I had to stab him multiple times. So then we put him up on a cross. And I had to leave the dagger in his heart. And then there was a sign that said, it had a coat on it. And like 1, 6, 6 drugs in alcohol, like offense. How did it feel? It just at the time, it just felt disgusting, but numb at the same time. Glumish. I just instantly thought I'm a psycho killer now. I put what the hell that I just do. That night, I couldn't sleep at all. I stayed up all night. I got really sick again. I just kept thinking of the guy. I can still feel having my hand on a shoulder. I just wanted to. Yeah. Can I stay? Yeah. Holding him. I was pushing him into a knife too. I could still feel that. I could stabbing someone in the heart like that. I just kept replaying the action of my hand going there. I just kept thinking of different things. There was a rush of thoughts in my head. I stabbed him. The blood was just everywhere. What the hell did I just do? I'm a psycho killer now. I didn't give him a chance to repent. I stabbed him. If I die, after doing something like this, how will I face God? No, no, no, no. What the hell did I just do? Then I started thinking of my family. What if they were here? What if that had to be my dad? You're basically killing your own parents in a way. Maybe that jihad that I'm doing right now is the wrong. The type of jihad. Maybe, no, this isn't it. This isn't the right life for me. During that week, it was just me being depressed. I only worked for two days that week. Did you superior notice that you were moved? They did. Yeah. They would talk to me about it. They'd come and talk. They'd have other guys come and talk to me. Guys would live with me. Who knew me very well? Can you just explain as best as you understand it? Yeah. What is happening to Fuzafa? So he tells us that at this point, he's in his dorm room. He's moping around depressed, having a hard time recovering from what he just did. And ISIS starts to parade a number of people in front of him. A commander comes in to tell him to buck up and then a bunch of fighters that he knows and that I think he looked up to who had become frontline fighters come to see him. Like, oh, yeah, that's just a good thing. You did that. I was in your position. You have such an honor to do that and everything. They're trying to convince me that everybody did was going to be like, but the way I killed them and stabbing them in the heart, what kind of punishment is that I've never heard of it. You know, they're like, no, for these guys, we have to put laws and draw them down. These guys have become so far from Islam. After everything that we have learned about how ISIS operates, namely that we are not the law givers. Allah is the ultimate law giver. He is now. He doesn't have to be my. He doesn't have to be my. He doesn't have to be my. He doesn't have to be my. The very concepts that brought him to this place are now being violated. And the explanations that they're giving him aren't lining up. It was becoming from increasingly like from a savior force coming in, and guiding them, helping them live, putting good standards of life to something that's trying to control them completely, and telling them that they're the wrong type of Muslims. You know, it became from some happy, I guess, happy place to all of a sudden dictatorship. And I've seen this time and again, that is what I saw with Jesse Morton, who was an al-Qaeda recruiter, how he pulled himself out. It's what Muban Sheikh has said was his experience. He's a Canadian who tried to join the Taliban, and defector after defector, I have seen this process. And that is, I think, one of the most important takeaways because if we take the time to listen to these people, what we learn is that it is belief, that brought them to this place, but it is also belief that brings them out. It is the contradictions, the hypocrisy, and the moments in time when the Islamic State does not live up to its theological message that finally propels people like Hussain Fah to leave. But Munib, the Australian guy? So right as he's sitting with these doubts, he says his buddy Munib, Hussain. His name was Munib. He was young like me too. Munib was in the same training course as him. I could tell he was not a guy who would tell on you or anything. He was really chill guy, and I miss him so much right now. And he feels comfortable enough to share with him the doubts that he's feeling. Yeah. So what did you tell him? I tell him all my doubts. I'm like, you know, I can't feel comfortable with killing him. That I tell him about my family history, and how not that type of guy, you know, like if I die after doing something like this, will, how will I face God, you know? And it's just making me feel really sick. And he'd share that. He'd tell me about himself and everything. He's like how he has his doubts. He was more of a guy like, yeah, but I really did leave everything behind so I can't go back. And he was the one who actually gave me the idea that you could possibly go back. You could run from here. You just leave. I said, I can't go back because he had problems. Yeah, you could. But you realize that your family loves you? Yeah, that I could, that I could go back. I have somewhere to go back to. How common is this that somebody would escape from inside the Caliphate? So it's not, it's not common. Obviously when you go there, you know, you've, you've left what they call, ooh, let me look this up. One second. You've left what they call that al-Qufr, which means the land of, of the Infidel's. And you've gone to Dar al-Islam, which is the land of Islam. And you're supposed to be shutting one door, right? And not, and not turning around and going back. But people did escape. We know that quite literally thousands have escaped, right? Thousands of people. Thousands have escaped. So as you're hearing him explain his particular escape story. So I considered walking. It sounds like other stories I've heard. But it's a desert, right? I packed up my stuff and... Getting out of ISIS-controlled territories, not easy. I had to steal a motorcycle. And then from there, I just straight hauled it out. You're trying to get past checkpoints. I knew which way to take and where they'd have their weakest checkpoint. Without being detected by ISIS. My heart was pounding at this point. I was so scared. They're subterfused. They stopped me. They're lying to people. Told them just patrolling around the city. Hiding in the bushes. And I'd take off my shirt and just lie flat on the ground. That kind of thing. And they're all pretty much all of them. They're trying to get to Turkey. And I got a hold of these eight agencies, right? OK, that's the most logical border to go through because once you're in Turkey... The girl that I met, she was an American. You're basically in an extension of Europe. And she's the one who ultimately took me to the Turkish border. So I went to Istanbul and I finally called my parents. And they were livid. My mom just started crying. She's like, you're alive. I thought you were dead. I thought I'd lost my son. And there was just a bunch of emotional. It was a really emotional. I even started crying a lot. Like, mom, I'm sorry. I couldn't do this anymore. I couldn't take it. I was wrong. I should have listened to you and everything. I saw it for the first hand. Now what's it going to give me? They're the furthest thing away from Islam. I'd rather... I'd rather follow what you guys were teaching me and everything. It was just an hour and a half, two hour call. And then they're like, okay, so you're not... You can't come back to Canada. You're going to be arrested because you have... There's no way to explain your disappearance. They'd go to Pakistan and stay there. So I stayed in Istanbul for a bit and finally booked my flight back to Pakistan. Where my grandparents were already. They were waiting for me. They... when I met them, yeah, the... You know, my grandfather just didn't talk to me at all. He didn't... he just ignored the fact that I was right there. My grandmother was more worried about me and everything. She was crying and just hugging me. So my parents actually booked me the ticket from here. They booked it from a travel agent here and they sent it to me on email. Did you not worry about what would happen at immigration? I was... I was, but I dressed in a way that didn't make me look suspicious. And my beard was in a style, not like a full-on beard. There's two guards on each side of the gate. And then they just like... We'll do your password where you're... They asked where you're coming from. And that's when I told them, okay, I came from Pakistan. They're like, okay, how long were you there? Ten months. Why were you there for ten months? I told the university and everything. They're like, okay. And I said it in a way, I guess... That didn't make you seem like I was lying. And I was telling the truth. I guess there's a sugar-coated version, but I was still telling the truth. When I got back, I had to face the reprisals for my parents, obviously. The first time we went out there for work. Yeah. My mom and my sister picked me up. And they just... They hugged me and they started crying. They couldn't believe it. I was really skinny. Like scratches on my face. A lot more scratches on my face. Anytime I'd just dropped dead soon, that's what I looked like. Then we went home. And my mom, she wouldn't leave my side. She just... She'd keep me in the kitchen with her wall cooking dinner. And you know, I'd have to sleep on the ground of their room. Do you think that they've been able to forgive you? My mom probably not. I don't think my mom can ever forgive me for what I told her about killing and everything. I swear. About what I've done. She'd never expected that. That I'd ever do something like that. And my dad probably not either. I put them through a lot and it's time I make it up to them now. And do you think that there's a chance you could go back to that ideology and to that life of violence? No. No, I cannot at all. I can't. No. It's something I've come too far from it. And, you know, there's too much here that I have to give up now. Like I've struggled so much to reintegrate myself. So there's no point in throwing that out all over again and going back to that ideology. Something that's not right. It's not right. Have you thought of turning yourself in as a way to kind of try to just, you know, break with it for good and not and not? I don't think I could turn myself in because I, if turn it, I mean, it's scary what they do to me. I don't want to be in a prison. I don't want to be cut off again from the outside world. Even no matter how much you're against it now, how much you hate it, you still did what you did. So, it's I'd have never thought of turning myself in. I'd like, I would turn myself in, not to the police, but to religious community leaders. I'd rather turn myself into and tell them what I'd done. I think we've kept too long enough at all. I think it was mom. Yes. I think it was mom. Yeah. Yeah. You know you're back, right? Let's hear it. Yeah, do it again. Okay. I'll see you soon. Thank you. Thank you.