Leadership v Management - 2023

Podcast: The Look & Sound of Leadership
Source: pdf-transcript
URL: https://essentialcomm.com/podcast/leadership-versus-management-2023/
Fetched: 2026-03-04 23:47:08

FEBRUARY 2023
Hosted by Tom Henschel
Leadership v Management –
An executive, in conversation with her coach, wonders
2023 if leaders and managers are different. And whether it
matters.
228 February 2023
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episodes
Which is which?
Reiko had leapfrogged her colleagues. Now, while still leading her large group of accoun-
tants, she was going to become the CFO of a division as well. Her boss, a huge supporter, got
her coaching so she could step boldly into her new role while still juggling the old one.
Early in Reiko’s coaching, she and I met with her boss, Scott, to hear him articulate his goals
for her coaching.
“She’s so good,” he said to me in front of her. “She deserves everything she’s getting. So
my goals for the coaching? I just want to be sure all that management and leadership stuff
doesn’t bite her in the ass. She’s going to have to be firing on all cylinders from day one.”
I asked what he meant by “all that management and leadership stuff.”
“Well, she’s going to have to keep leading her current group.” He looked at Reiko. “You’re the
reason they’re superstars. They sure weren’t like that before you took over. And now they’re
workhorses. They’re terrific. I don’t want their performance to decline just because you’re
taking on this other role. They’re still your people and you’re going to have to keep leading
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 2
them just like you have been.”
Scott turned back to me and continued.
“This new division she’s going to be managing? Boy, are they in trouble. Reiko’s going to
have to make some tough choices about their work and then put systems in place to
make it all happen. It won’t be easy to manage.”
Then the conversation turned away from his ideas about “all that leadership and
management stuff.”
After he’d gone, Reiko and I compared notes about what we’d each heard. When I
mentioned the portion about leadership and management, I said, “I’m not certain, but
I think Scott and I label our columns exactly opposite when it comes to what we think
leadership does versus what management does.”
“Opposite how?” she asked.
“Actually,” I said, reconsidering, “maybe he doesn’t distinguish between leadership and
management.”
“What did you hear?” she asked.
“I don’t think “Well, he talked about your current group of superstars. And he talked about you
of managing ‘leading them’ to make sure their performance doesn’t decline. To me, that means he
performance wants you to manage their performance. I don’t think of managing performance as a
as a leadership leadership challenge. I think of it as a management challenge.”
challenge.”
“Really? For me, it’s both.”
“How so?” I asked.
Leadership and feelings
“Well, yes, the work needs to get managed. Of course. And, boy oh boy, do we manage
the work. There’s no excuse for any yellow lights any more. But the way I got them
there, and the way I keep them there, that feels like leadership to me. I tell them, over
and over, how important the work is. I cheer them on and I pump them up. That’s all
leadership.”
I said, “So for you, leadership has a lot to do with motivation.”
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 3
“You bet,” she said. “I learned that from my first boss. He was fantastic. He used to say all
the time, leadership isn’t about what people do, it’s about what people feel. That’s been
my mantra ever since. To me, leadership is about getting people to care about the work,
whatever that takes.”
“Sounds great, Reiko,” I said. “So what did you think when Scott said the new division
needs to be ‘managed’? That you’re going to have to make tough choices about their
work?”
“I think he’s right,” she said. “There are some serious issues in that division that need to be
straightened out. It’s going to take at least a year to fix it all.”
“And will the fixing be a management challenge or a leadership challenge?”
She shot back, “Won’t it be both?”
“I don’t know,” I said. “I’m asking.”
Come together
“I think it’s both,” she said. “I’ve got to put systems into place. That’s management. But I
don’t know what those systems will be yet. I have to figure out what the work is going to
look like before I figure out what the systems are. And figuring out what the work looks
like, that’s leadership. So, yes, I think it’s both.”
Putting systems “Figuring out the work is leadership? Not the way people feel?” I asked, referring back to
in place is her leadership mantra.
management.
“Oh, people are going to feel plenty! Don’t worry about that!”
Figuring out
what the work “Why’s that?” I asked.
looks like is
“Aw, this poor division. Everyone hates them. They’re so beat up. They don’t know who
leadership.
they’re serving and so everyone’s pissed at them because they’re not serving anyone.
Part of my job – my leadership job – is going to be deciding who we serve. No matter what
I decide, people are going to get stirred up. There will be a whole boat load of feelings. I
have no doubt!”
I said, “It sounds like this is fun for you.”
“It is! Motivating people. Aligning people. I love that stuff. Not that we talk about it much
around here.”
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 4
“Why not?”
“We just don’t seem to. We talk about systems and measurement and planning. That’s
all management all the time. But this other stuff? Motivating people. Aligning people. I
don’t talk about that stuff with anyone.”
“Could you?”
“You know what? Now that I think of it, I do! Not with my peers. And not with Scott. But
with my direct reports, I think I do talk about it with them. I talk with them about how
they’re leading their people.”
“What do those conversations sound like?”
“I don’t know. Nothing structured. You got something for me?”
Separation with overlap
“As a matter of fact, I do,” I said. “I have a way that I talk about how leadership and
management are different. The two big pieces come from John Kotter who was at
Harvard. He was the big thinker about leadership and management. And I’ve put my
own little twist on it. It goes like this.
Leadership and “Leadership and management are separate.” I extended one arm towards the windows
management and pushed my palm out. “Let’s say leadership is way over there.” I extended my other
are separate arm towards the opposite wall, saying, “And management is way over there. They
and have are really separate. They even have separate reasons for existing. And,” I indicated
separate the middle space, “between them, they share one big set of skills that’s a ‘must’ for
reasons for succeeding at either.”
existing.
“What is it?” she asked.
“Well, before we jump into the middle, can we talk about why each one exists?”
“Sure!”
“Let’s start with management. Kotter has a one-word banner that arches over
everything in the management bucket.”
“And that word is…?” she asked, like a drumroll.
“Complexity,” I answered.
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 5
“Good word for management,” she said.
“I think that’s why management exists,” I said. “Management exists to deal with all of
work’s complexity.”
She ticked on her fingers. “Staffing, budgeting, planning. That’s what we’re talking
about, right? All management and all complex.”
“Right,” I said, then ticked on my own fingers, “Measurement. Controlling. And good
old-fashioned problem solving. They’re all complex and they’re all management
actions.”
“You know what else is complex?” she asked. “Organizations themselves!” That felt so
true I laughed. She went on. “So what’s the raison d’etre for leadership?”
Leadership’s raison d’etre
“Change.” I answered.
“That’s the word from Kotter?”
“Yes,” I said. “That’s why leadership exists. To help people during change – which never
ends.”
“Are things like motivating and aligning on the leadership side?”
“You bet!” I said.
“What else?” she asked.
Recognizing I waited. After she didn’t speak, I offered, “Recognizing patterns. That’s a leadership
patterns. That’s behavior.”
a leadership
She nodded, “Sure, because it’s looking from so high up. And management has to
behavior.
look from so close up. Oh! Hey, what about strategy and vision? They belong on the
leadership side, right?”
“I’m cautious about those words,” I said.
“Really? They feel low hanging to me. Why are you cautious?”
“Because all too often leaders say they want to work on ‘vision’ and ‘strategy.’ Then
they get together and do a lot of planning that’s all in the weeds. They’re using a
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 6
management tool to solve a leadership problem. It’s usually not very effective.”
“So you don’t think leaders should think about vision?”
“No, they should! Just not through planning.”
“Then how?”
I thought a second, then said, “Do you remember you said you have to figure out who
the division is going to serve? That question has no real measurement in it. Direction,
yes. But measurement? I don’t think so. What are you going to consider with that
question? Deliverables, yes. But also people. Maybe values. Maybe service. You’re
going to consider qualities. So they’ll be hard to measure.
I went on, concluding, “Your question – ‘Who does this division serve?’ – can lead you to
a vision. Planning can’t.”
“For me,” she said, “questions like that – ‘Who do we serve?’ – those are the fun ques-
tions. I guess I’m better on the leadership side than the management side.”
“Hmmm, that might be a perfect segue into that middle skill they both share.”
The shared skills
“Oh, right! What is it?” she asked.
To be effective, “Relationship skills. To be effective, leadership and management both need the whole
leadership and broad array of relationship skills.”
management
“Like…?”
both need
the whole Ticking a new list, I said, “Strong, positive networks. The ability to persuade. Having
broad array of influence. Using emotional intelligence.”
relationship
She clucked and gave an exaggerated wave of dismissal. “Oh! Those tired old things?”
skills
I laughed. “Right? But think about leadership. It exists because change is constant…” I
suspended the sentence.
She finished the thought. “…And that stirs up a boat load of feelings!”
“Which makes relationship skills crucial! And… there’s complexity.”
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 7
“Uh-Oh! Feelings a-plenty comin’ right up! Relationship skills required.” She shifted
rhythm, saying, “The relationship skills are hard for me when I’m managing.”
“Hard how?”
“When I’m in the weeds, sometimes I completely forget to be nice. So I’m learning to
slow down and remember my relationship skills. It’s not a bad thing. It just takes more
energy.”
She nodded, then pointed to the three different spaces. “OK. Leadership is change.
Management is complexity. Relationship skills are in both.” Then, cocking her head at
me, she asked, “So what’s the point of this whole conversation about leadership versus
management?”
“You first. What are you taking away from it?”
She spoke thoughtfully. “Separating it out like that is helpful. It reminds me to be con-
scious of when I’m standing on which side of the room. What tools do I want to use? But
do you know what I’m curious about?”
“What?” I asked.
“Do they sound different?”
“Management and leadership?”
“Yes, do they sound different?”
Exploring that question is the next coaching conversation of The Look & Sound of
Leadership.
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 8
Core Concepts
n Leadership is about change. And change is eternal.
n Leadership isn’t about what people do, it’s about what people feel.
n Leadership includes:
– Motivating
– Aligning
– Recognizing patterns
– Creating visions and strategies
n Management is about complexity. Work will not happen properly without complexity.
Complexity requires management.
n Management includes:
– Staffing
– Budgeting
– Controlling
– Measuring
– Problem solving
n Relationship skills are needed to be effective in both leadership and management.
n Relationship skills include:
– Strong, positive networks
– The ability to persuade
– Having influence
– Using emotional intelligence
Related Library Categories
Leadership
Management Skills
Relationship Building
LEADERSHIP V MANAGEMENT — 2023 FEBRUARY 2023 | 9
Related Episodes

146 Building Empathy

163 Dynamic One-on-Ones

149 How Teams Fight

148 Taming Meetings

158 The Voice of Authority

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